Two days ago I put up a piece here called “Thich Naht Hanh is Wrong.” It was a deliberately provocative title. I said in the comments to that piece that the title was meant to ask, “Who is Thich Naht Hanh?” Someone said that smelled like fresh bullshit to him. I’d like to ask that guy, “Then who is Thich Naht Hanh?”
Some folks got upset that I was being disrespectful to a man who has dedicated his life to bring peace to the world. But was I? If I had any reason at all to believe that Thich Naht Hanh would ever see what I wrote, then possibly. Although even then I’d say “disrespectful” was not the right word. But let’s get real here. Thich Naht Hanh will never see what I wrote about him.
So who was I being disrespectful to?
Who is Thich Naht Hanh?
A few people got bent out of shape that I said I believed that Thich Naht Hanh did not write his own Twitter posts. It turns out I was right. He doesn’t. His Twitter profile says, “My twitter account is managed by senior students, both monastic and non-monastic.” He probably didn’t even write that!
I’ve also been told by people who seem to know what they’re talking about that Thich Naht Hanh doesn’t write his own books. His talks are recorded and transcribed. Then senior students edit them into books, which Thich Naht Hanh approves before publication. Of course the covers of these books simply say “by Thich Naht Hanh.”
Ask anyone who writes for a living what they think of that sort of thing and I guarantee they’ll get a little wrankled by the idea. Writing is hard work. People who claim to be writers but don’t actually do the work annoy those of us who really write our own stuff. It’s not a big deal. But it irks me enough when I see this very common practice that I like to point it out. I would guess that about half of the “authors” whose books are shelved near mine at your local Book Barn “write” their books in pretty much the same way. I don’t think it’s disrespectful to say this. I think it’s truthful.
Who is Thich Naht Hanh?
One commenter said, “Brad is a wannabe Zen master who is envious of the big boys in the Buddhist world. It’s so obvious: His passive-aggressive sleight-of-hand barbs at Dalai and Thich betrays a desire to be the ‘bad boy of Buddhism’. Grow up, Brad.”
Envious of the “big boys in the Buddhist world?” Moi? Not really. Rather I am amused by the idea that there is a class of people we can call “big boys in the Buddhist world.” Zero Defex, the hardcore band I play bass for were not envious of the “big boys in the rock and roll world.” Rather, we found them boring and wanted to provide an alternative. While we might have wanted to be a bit more popular than we were, we certainly did not want to be among the “big boys.” That would have run completely counter to what we were trying to accomplish. Part of being an alternative to the big rock bands involved staying small. I feel pretty much the same way now about the “big boys in the Buddhist world.”
The idea that the “big boys in the Buddhist world” are somehow qualitatively better teachers than the less well-known ones is a very troubling notion to me. And I’m not talking about myself as an example of one of the less well-known teachers. I’m starting to fear that my growing popularity is making me ineffective as a teacher.
The rise of this new class of Mega Masters troubles me. Such teachers cannot possibly have direct contact with the massive numbers of students who claim them as their teachers. I met some people once who talked about feeling some kind of magic mojo when the Dalai Lama walked by them thirty feet away, deep in a crowd of fawning fans, surrounded by secret service guards. Such fantasies are extraordinarily damaging.
It’s precisely the same kind of thing a fan feels when he gets to be near a celebrity he admires. I know I felt it when I got to meet Gene Simmons of KISS in person. But I didn’t add to that feeling some kind of weird idea that my being in proximity to Gene Simmons conveyed some sort of spiritual shaktipat, or that I got a big ol’ ZAP of pure Zen energy or some such nonsense. When Genpo Roshi charges suckers $50,000 to have personal contact with him you’d better believe he’s implying that some of his supposed enlightenment will rub off when they’re close. I’m not sure I want any part of what rubs off of Genpo Roshi, though!
When I said in the comments that Thich Naht Hanh is no more a simple wandering monk than Bruce Springsteen is a blue-collar working man, some people pointed out that I have an image as well. Why Mr. Holmes, your powers of deductive reasoning are astonishing! Of course I have an image! So do you. So does everyone.
Who is Thich Naht Hanh?
Is it you? Is it your image of Thich Naht Hanh that I’ve disrespected? If so, why does that bug you? Is it you that I’ve disrespected? Who are you?
These are important questions.
Someone in the comments section seemed worried that maybe I had some inside dirt on Thich Naht Hanh. He asked, “Do you know of Thay’s actions that bring him into disrepute?” The answer is no. I do not. As far as I’m aware Thich Naht Hanh is a totally scandal-free guy. But I don’t know that much about him.
Suffice it to say, I am not trying to imply that Thich Naht Hanh is a disreputable teacher who should not be trusted. He seems like a decent guy. I like most of the quotes I see from his books. Even the quote I criticized last time might be fine in context. It might be fine as it is, too. But we all need to be careful how we take things.
Even when someone says something 100% true, sometimes you need to question it. Because your interpretation of what was said may not be correct. It’s not the fault of the speaker when his words are misconstrued. Everybody’s words are misconstrued. Misconstruing what we hear people say is what we human beings do. This is why we have to be careful.
Jeez, there was even a commenter on my previous blog posting who thought I said that Hitler and Charles Manson were enlightened beings! I never said that Hitler and Charles Manson were enlightened beings. But I can’t shut up forever just because some doofus might misconstrue the things I say. As Katagiri Roshi pointed out, “You have to say something.” And most of the time what you say will be completely misunderstood.
So I stand by what I said before. Thich Naht Hanh is wrong.
But who is Thich Naht Hanh?
Who is Thich Naht Hanh?
Is it you? Is it your image of Thich Naht Hanh that I've disrespected? If so, why does that bug you? Is it you that I've disrespected? Who are you?
These are important questions.
It's all right here.
It's all right there.
Don't forget to change your underwear.
Very true.
jason farrow
I understand what you meant by "mindfulness would get in the way of the sunrise" in your criticism of Thich Naht Hahn's comment, but I also thought it was a little bit petty to criticize his comment. Perhaps Hahn simply meant to live in the present moment without distraction from thoughts will allow one to see the sun more clearly and to do that takes some awareness and concentration. I totally understand calling out Genpo Roshi, but when you begin calling out all these other teachers over little things similar to this Hahn comment. It comes off like a reality TV celebrity or You Tuber saying something controversial just to increase their media coverage, their views, their "likes," and their popularity. Though I don't think that is your intention.
After reading "I'm starting to fear that my growing popularity is making me ineffective as a teacher," the following thoughts bubbled up in my head. If Brad doesn't believe that Zen can be taught online (which I agree with) and his blog is just a way to promote his books, and as he – along with every other Buddhist teacher – has said, Buddhism cannot be learned from books, then is Brad really teaching at all? I suppose touring and doing retreats could be considered teaching, but does Brad have a group of people in Akron he works with regularly…does Brad have a real student-teacher relationship with anyone? If anything is making Brad and ineffective teacher, it's not popularity growth…but his lack of settling down with a group of people he meets and sits with on a regular basis.
I like Brad, because I like his books and blog and believe they have value, and I'm looking forward to his next book on Buddhism and God. But another reason I like Brad is his character doesn’t make me feel like I’m some piss ant that is going to be burned at the stake or sent to hell if I give him some critical feedback…just a few pokes with a red hot poker from the cult followers (I kid, I kid)…and he shouldn't be burned at the stake for criticizing the "big boys in the Buddhist world" if he chooses to do so.
I think that Haiku Dojo (space for about 17) members collected Suzuki's 'dharma' talks and, with SFZC, compiled "Beginners Mind."
This, that, hand also had his talks collected by his followers and, with reworking, compiled into a collection of books attributed to him.
It doesn't matter who he is, who you are, or who I am. If it works, use it. If it doesn't work, discard it.
*He, you, and I might just me manifestations of the one consciousness*. We have know way of knowing that. *I might think that for a while but that doesn't make it true.
I like to remind the people of other faiths that just because the sincerely believe something, it does not make that something true.
Nor is truth a popularity contest (e.g. if more people believe it, then it must be true). Never underestimate the stupidity and gullibility of the average human.
Your first book was your best book; earnest, thankful, humble, in touch with those who wouldn't read The Sun My Heart. Not quite bone crushing, but good. The last couple read like US weekly for buddhists. Brad, you're a good guy, and the complaints and criticisms are not received as subversive. Instead, they seem to mark practice immaturity. If you don't believe me, look at your comments- are you inspiring us to sit or not?
Your first book inspired me to sit. The last few, with this blog, are thoroughly entertaining, but there is nothing to chew here. This is the drivel of shavelings and seems off the top of your head.
Brad,
What does your penis look like in terms of size, shape and smell?
cutting through spiritual materialism
"If you don't believe me, look at your comments- are you inspiring us to sit or not?"
Ever since Brad's keynote "Hitler's Parinirvana™" speech of 2010, I've practiced shikantaza while standing in the "Sieg Heil" position for 45 minutes per day.
I use to awaken the Kundalini after
sex, but it wasn't "it. It was just
a momentary diversion, candy for
the mind, Mary.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQasvZDubI8&feature;=autoplay&list;=UUwHl_IlWlaQAz9ulAa4OwyQ&lf;=plcp&playnext;=1
Methinks Brad protest too much.
Look Warner, you want to know the Hard Truth? You are too attached to the idea of being "The Bad Boy of Buddhism" or "The Hardcore Punk Bass Monk". To reinforce this image, you have to come off as being cool and disdainful of authorities (or at least perceived authorities). This is just your own ego trip, which you are trying to peddle to your readers as "Hardcore Zen".
Wake up!
Every idea can't be a gem. I think you might want to leave these last couple off your "best of Brad" ebook.
What possessed Brad to take the stage with Zero Defex (lol) while wearing his monk robes?
he Most Buddhist books are transcribed and edited talks. TNH is hardly the only one who does this. The senior students who labor away in obscurity to turn their teachers' talks into something readable deserve some credit. (Yes, I've done a little of this myself.)
My biggest gripe? How so few books these days have an index. Even an index of proper names would be helpful. Julian Winston self-published The Faces of Homeopathy. It has a great index, which was very helpful for this week's talk. You would think book publishers would show a little more care with what they print. If Sit Down and Shut Up had an index, it would be a lot more useful to me.
Folks, the TNH you think is great or terrible is just an idea in your head. Likewise for Brad Warner. (Dalai Lama, Pope Benedict, Rush Limbaugh, Barack Obama, etc.) Quit wasting your time chasing phantoms.
this may not be entirely on topic, but i recently attended a retreat lead by peggy and larry ward, who teach in thich nhat hahns zen tradition.
larry was quite open and honest and mentioned that he does some writing for thichs books, and that when thich teaches in vietnam, his teachings are alot different from the states and he sticks more to the zen tradition, and not his guided meditation stuff.
the reasoning, as larry explained it, was that the average buddhist in america doesn't like it. he went on to explain that its deeply engrained in our culture to be go-go, get it done, got shit to do, get out of my way, so he greatly emphesizes the soft slow nice thing, in hopes of some sort of social evolution. at least thats the gist of what he said, i may have missed the mark. correct me if i'm wrong and you are familiar with larry ward.
i completely agree with brad. thich nhat hahn is alright with me, but his celebrity status gets in the way.
I really didn't get much out of that retreat either. larry gave good talks but the whole thing was willy nilly. a lot of people not honoring noble silence, and there was only about 2 hours a day of actual sitting meditation, half of which was guided. I felt like a little kid in kindergarden at best.
this is coming from a guy who has never been on a sesshin(spelling?) and my only other retreat experience has been vipassana. i take what i can get in an area that associates zen with genpo roshi.
totally!
why do we create it?
why do we chase it?
silly of me.
what Brad says in his first post is what i did for the longest time. Then i realized it's because i should be focused on meditation, not "mindfullness". What he's saying makes perfect sense to me. If you're offended then you aren't sitting. And if you aren't sitting then we're talking 2 different languages.
WHO IS THICH NHAT HANH ?
In the early 1960s, he founded the School of Youth for Social Services (SYSS) in Saigon. This grassroots relief organization rebuilt bombed villages, set up schools, established medical centers, and resettled families left homeless during the Vietnam War.[2] He traveled to the U.S. to study at Princeton University, and later to lecture at Cornell University and Columbia University. His focus at the time was to urge the U.S. government to withdraw from Vietnam. He urged Martin Luther King, Jr. to publicly oppose the Vietnam War; King nominated Hanh for the Nobel Peace Prize in January 1967. He created the Order of Interbeing in 1966, establishing monastic and practice centers around the world. In 1973, the Vietnamese government denied Nhat Hanh permission to return to Vietnam and he went into exile in France. From 1976 to 1977 he led efforts to rescue Vietnamese boat people in the Gulf of Siam.
~ from Wikipedia
(This man has been busy!)
Brad has been busy too! Promoting himself (if he's honest, he would admit it).
Brad, if you are so worried that your "growing popularity" is rendering you ineffective as a teacher, why don't you just, uh, stop trying to promote yourself?
Old boy, i've been promoting your mom..
Man, this whole thing has become so negative. Interesting to see how harsh some "Buddhists" can be. Surprising actually.
Anyway, I just wanted to say that I think Brad's original post on this (mindfulness & the sunset) was spot on. One of his best posts ever actually. I really mean that. All I'm really saying, is it's a shame it had to be on the back of another Buddhist in a slightly petty manner. It's too bad because it tainted the post in a way, because the message itself was one of the best, clearest, and profound expressions I've seen. He almost summed up the value of entire books, in a few paragraphs.
Watching all the comments today, has kind of opened my eyes a bit… not all Buddhists are these peaceful nice folks… some of us are down right mean.
Doug
I read your blog pretty regularly. When I read the first TNH post, I immediately thought, "Oh noooo…he's not really going to dis' TNH, is he???" He's kind of like the Mother Theresa of the Buddhist world. But I hung in and read the whole thing. I don't think it was disrespectful at all. I'm not sure TNH is wrong, only wrong if you agree with Warner's context. I never got a bad feeling about myself or thought "gosh I'm not mindful enough…" If I had thought that, then yeah…TNH would have been wrong. But there's more than one way to receive someone's writing. Writing is something that we interpret for ourselves, sometimes in tune with the author, sometimes not.
I think the important message in Warner's post, is we should question everything. And when you think you have the answers, you better go back and ask some more questions. I think that's all Warner was trying to say, or at least how I took it. It was meant to be a provocative post, meant to make you think for yourself. He stirred the pot.
I recently attended a workshop on meditation given by a Buddhist monk from the Temple I frequent. I went in feeling pretty grounded after 2 years of daily meditation. I left feeling totally discombobulated. When I relayed this to a friend, he said "Excellent!" Yes…it's true…only when we are challenged and taken out of our comfort zone, can we take that next little step on the path. Question, question and question some more. Buddhist monks are people just like ministers or Catholic priests (well, we hope not quite like priests)…but you have to question for yourself. Just because some jerk writes it, it don't make it so.
Right, and then when you go to one of his retreats you find out his monastics know nothing. You find out that you've been caught up in a cash grab because someone is always encouraging you to give money or buy something like a TNH watch that says "It's time". Or a piece of paper that that says "PureLand" in black paint inside the Zen symbol>for a couple of hundred dollars.
The worst part is when he does his walk in the PureLand and stops at a grassy spot by a tree and pulls out the tinist little gong you ever saw and looks deep into the many hand picked childern of different races…meanwhile the mothers are standing around crying with their hands in a "Gassho". The walk leads you back to line up for lunch where you pass by the TNH store where one day they were giving out free books on "The Power of Giving",written and looking like a TNH book,but not of his publishing company, not with his name on it, etc etc etc…but does tell you how much of your income you should give to a good "leader'.
I did the deep relaxation with his 'sister' where you lay down on the floor and she speaks a bunch of nonese over the p.a. system….you realy dift off somewhere…then she tells you make sure you make a donantion to the orphans of vietnam…
People need to realize that there are Jimmy Swaggart Dharma teachers out there.
My opinon is that a bad teacher and a good teacher are both teachers. If yoo choose to see it that way.
I got sucked up into it. I feel like a dumbass. But the only reason I publicly say it is so that other people don't have to go through the same grinder.
He is cult leader in my opinon. A f****** genius of a cult leader on a mass scale.
Suck it up, he's gone renaged. I did.
jason farrow
Doug, If you see something as negative, What are you really seeing? That's right, you guessed it.
This comment has been removed by the author.
On the topic of sensing presence or "shakti," activating and energizing the subtle capacity of the anatomical structure, with a foundation of strong nerves and glands can produce a detectable "radiance" in a person (more detailed description: http://www.3ho.org/kundalini-yoga/tantric-numerology/ten-bodies/). While it is helpful, it is just a container like any other; a delivery system to convey the projection of one's attitude.
I was once stopped on the street in Santa Monica by an Indian guy in all black with one of the strongest auras I had ever encountered. He told me all about how he was enlightened, and why the heavens called for me to give him 40 dollars for a palm reading. Enough said.
So there's a practical component to someone having a "big aura, etc" that can be understood through yogic systems of subtle anatomy, but this technology can be used for many different reasons, many of which aren't so noble.
It is also very true that being "starstruck" can play a huge factor. Really, any time someone sees another as anything more or less than an equal, it creates a kind of fear which distorts the accurate perception of that person's energy field.
No idea who Thich Naht Hanh is though…
my post is in response to “(This man has been busy!) “ person who is quoting wikipedia.
jason
No one is handing out deadly kool aid yet.
I would just like to point out that mysterion is a douche. See you next week. Thank you.
yet.
Jason farrow@9:51 PM,
the word awesome is thrown around pretty lightly nowadays but not by me.
That was awesome.
Sometimes, to call out poseurs like Brad, one has to be "negative" (i.e. straightforward) and cut through the self-serving "hardcore" bullshit.
A true Dharma teacher teaches that Dharma is empty of self, not full of self.
Sometimes the message is the medium. Sometimes the medium is the message.
jason
There is nothing to defend where there is nothing to attack.
But I do get the vibe that there are some Genpo people here looking to attack Brad, because they are trying to defend their beloved con artist. Just a hunch.
Just because Brad has an image, doesn't mean what he writes/teaches is wrong. At least he's not trying to swindle and con people.
End of the day, the message should be able to stand on its own, and Brads words usually do… all packaging and image asside.
Jinzang wrote: If Sit Down and Shut Up had an index, it would be a lot more useful to me.
Actually, there is an index online. SDSU Index
Brady's modus operandi is to make some controversial barb about some Buddhist teacher and then act all "who me?" and coy when people call him out. Then he hides behind philosophical and grammar jugglery. His ego trip is so obvious to those whose eyes are open. Most of his blog posts are subtle bragging about how "hardcore" and "authentic" he is, compared to the Dalai Lama or the "Thichster" or Genpo or the Soto establishment. The implication of being a disciple of this kind of "Zen Master" is that one has to end up subsidising his ego trip. Come on, Brady. Wake up!
"There is a destiny that makes us brothers:
None goes his way alone:
All that we send into the lives of others
Comes back into our own."
-Edwin Markham
this can be a good guideline how to threat other people with respect. Either it is TNH, or Brad, or anyone else.
OK, I take it all back…
"Some folks got upset that I was being disrespectful to a man who has dedicated his life to bring peace to the world. But was I? If I had any reason at all to believe that Thich Naht Hanh would ever see what I wrote, then possibly."
I sincerely hope you’re not implying that it’s impossible to be disrespectful towards / about someone if they are not present or will not hear what you say about them?
From what I know of TNH, my overall feeling is, contrary to Jason Farrow, TNH is not a fake. I think he is deeply and sincerely committed to what he has endeavoured.
However, the gist of it is, IMO, that, just the same as for Deshimaru, you have to decide between quantity or quality. Dogen, who has been mentioned as a "big boy" here, emphasised on quality, and had it not been for Keizan, the Sotoshu would never had gone so big, because he did not really look like someone interested in Fame and Glory.
If you decide on quantity, then you get a whole lot of cronies who just dribble with veneration for you, but there are truly much too many to make anything sound out of it (with eventually some exceptions).
As for myself, I was never attracted to the thing because of their lack of interest for meditation, but even more so because of the huge crowds surrounding him. Zen teaching is a one to one relationship. You can't get that when you have to compete with hundreds of bigots ready to kill in order to step in front of you on the row for the benediction. Same applies to DL: who does he have the time to teach to?
What's more, to those offended by Brad's post's title, just realise that he's not talking about THE actual TNH. He's talking about a virtual one with whom he does not agree. They're not the same.
proulx michel: was Deshimaru more this "popular&light;" teacher? I only heard about him, but have never read/listened to anything from him.
A great commentary Brad, don't worry about people defending TNH (even though the commentary is not really about TNH). It's human nature. I hope I am not as easily deceived by others. I can only imagine trying to "teach" without being worshipped. It's probably not possible, but thanks for your effort.
Who is John Galt?
"John Galt is a fictional character in Ayn Rand's novel Atlas Shrugged (1957). Although he is not identified by name until the last third of the novel, he is the object of its often-repeated question "Who is John Galt?" and of the quest to discover the answer."
"As the plot unfolds, Galt is acknowledged to be a creator, philosopher, and inventor who symbolizes the power and glory of the human mind. He serves as a principled counterpoint to the collectivist social and economic structure depicted in the novel. The depiction portrays a society based on oppressive bureaucratic functionaries and a culture that embraces stifling mediocrity and egalitarianism, which the novel associates with socialistic idealism."
from Wikipedia
I think your feelings about Thich are quite widely shared too.
http://approachingaro.org/visceral-dislike
Brad Zen is eye ball to eye ball. Mind to mind.Gut to gut. Real time to real time. You do as much disservice to Zen as Genpo because you ad to the clutter culture of Books. I realize Dogen is your god and he wrote. But Dogen didn't have a blog or publisher and editor and proof reader etc. a check from a publisher, albeit a small one it is still a check.
The Beetles were pretty big boys of rock and roll if memory serves me right.I sort of get a mojo feeling when I listen to them.
Suckers pay $50,000 for Genpo or $20.00 for Brad books , a suckers a sucker . One can't put a price on it. If it quacks like a duck.
"I'm starting to fear that my growing popularity is making me ineffective as a teacher. " Hmmmm….I honestly didn't know that you are teacher. An Author that lecturers on Zen Buddhism to sell his books albeit at a small profit is what I gathered.
If you are really a teacher I would quit hiding behind a blog and books and teach. Stop spreading disinformation intentionally. It helps no one.
I have tremendous respect for Thich Nhat Hanh, but I think you're right to point out over use of a term, or the misleading misuse of a term.
Even we Buddhists can get caught up in cliches, or even worse we simply repeat the same old cliches instead of pointing out the trap of language.
Part of that trap is "oh I know the word so I know what he's talking about."
And as Buddhists we should respect teachers/human beings like Thich Nhat Hanh, but we should always remember that hey are human too.
…is this really that controversial? I like Obama but he's fucking terrible when it comes to education. I shoot from the hip when he talks education because I think he's dead wrong almost all the time on that issue.
Thich Nhat Hanh's "Anger" is probably a book that was ghostwritten, but it seriously saved my life and my 5+ year relationship with my partner. To this day, I open that book up and go "ew, god, this is some syrupy, hokey shit!" But it was what I needed. I loaned the book to a teacher of mine, and she said "He just says the same thing over and over again, but not bad!"
Did we do anything "worse" than what Brad did in his post? Come on guys!
–matt
Brad Zen is eye ball to eye ball. Mind to mind.Gut to gut. Real time to real time. You do as much disservice to Zen as Genpo because you ad to the clutter culture of Books. I realize Dogen is your god and he wrote. But Dogen didn't have a blog or publisher and editor and proof reader etc. a check from a publisher, albeit a small one it is still a check.
The Beetles were pretty big boys of rock and roll if memory serves me right.I sort of get a mojo feeling when I listen to them.
Suckers pay $50,000 for Genpo or $20.00 for Brad books , a suckers a sucker . One can't put a price on it. If it quacks like a duck.
"I'm starting to fear that my growing popularity is making me ineffective as a teacher. " Hmmmm….I honestly didn't know that you are teacher. An Author that lecturers on Zen Buddhism to sell his books albeit at a small profit is what I gathered.
If you are really a teacher I would quit hiding behind a blog and books and teach. Stop spreading disinformation intentionally. It helps no one.
Instead of Brad's comment/question being "disrespectful" I think his honest/sincere questioning of Thich Nhat Hanh is the highest form of respect !!!
It says I take you seriously, we see this often in koans with students and teachers questioning other teachers.
gassho