You must have seen a dozen of these “What I Really Do” things by now. Some of them are kind of funny. Most are kind of dull. I thought I’d do one for myself before somebody else did. Click on it and you should get the full sized version. If you’ve never seen one of these & want to know what they are, just enter “What I Really Do Meme” into your favorite search engine.
So I just found out this blog gets over 10,000 views a week and over 7,000 visits. I’m not sure what differentiates a visit from a view. But that’s a lot of people. Where are my Gempo Roshi-like piles of cash?
Eh. Whatever.
I’m kind of all Zenned out at the moment. I’ve been answering loads of questions as Tricycle magazine’s Meditation Doctor. If you want to read some of that stuff go to this link. It’s interesting that it all kind of boils down to just one question and just one answer. Some ancient Zen teachers noticed this and responded the same way to everyone who asked. Like Gutei, who would just raise one finger whenever someone asked him anything. I get that. But somehow I don’t think Tricycle’s readers would be satisfied if I just kept flipping them the bird.
Uh oh! The latest question is from someone who says they’ve been “experiencing deep, absorptive states.” Not sure what I’m gonna do about that. I guess we’ll see once I start writing my answer. I think Bounty is the quicker-picker-upper for deep absorptive states!
I kid! I kid! Hey! Don’t forget to tip your bar tenders. I’ll be here all week. Be sure to try the vegetarian imitation veal.
Indeed, A-Bob. Concentration and discipline are good things and may emerge as fringe benefits of shikantaza, but I don’t see such benefits as measures by which the ‘success’ of the practice is to be judged. Shikantaza is not primarily a method for learning how to concentrate…is the point I wanted to make.
Well, it's not goal oriented. It's not even process-as-end-in-itself. In a sense IMO, sitting (shikantaza, whatever) is its own "koan" -impenetrable as far as reasoning it out goes; its one of those things utterly without "value" in the traditional religious heirarchial (sp?) sense. "You" get nothing out of it, it eventually destroys your ambition. No labels apply. THEN you can see the same thing in the rest of your experience/ no experience. And rest in That. ("Thou art That, I Am That, I Am That I Am, blah blah blah se blah").
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I do believe there are benefits to be gained from regularly practising shikantaza – like discipline, patience and concentration. As A-Bob says, such benefits may be all we ‘get’ from sitting and I don’t mean to dismiss them. They're important and valuable. But if the practice is described or understood primarily as a practice that develops (say) concentration – or as a practice that leads to enlightenment, for which one needs to develop concentration – then people are likely to sit trying to concentrate, and judging their efforts accordingly. I don’t believe that’s a useful or effective way to reap the benefits of just sitting…is perhaps the point of the point I’m trying to make.
Tha's funny, that commercial, john e. Folger's eh? We don't got Folger's. Electric bill…he…funny.
Hi Anon 108, I think we're roughly on the same page. I wasn't suggesting that concentration or even disipline was the goal. My poorly made point was that one never knows what one is going to take out of shikantaza practice. We might not get what we want or expect. It's an unknown. But with it's regular practice you do develop a um.. a settling routine, which can be very valuable in itself.
These new captchas are a bitch to read innit?
CAPTCHA : unmentional beaumont : I kid you not
Captchas? Too right, mate. Proper hard they are. You have my sympathies.
And roughly same page? Yes, I'm sure we are.
Guys I never mentioned "concentration". I said its about being aware about paying attention whats going on while you sit. No goal here, nothing to gain just be awake and be aware or as I said after a while let awareness do its thing.
Joko Beck talks about that a lot. Even Brad does, listen to his podcasts. On one of them he agrees on noticing your thoughts and even says that when he gets lost that he comes back to his breath. Now doesn't sound like its completely irrelevant what you do with your mind while sitting anymore huh?
But for some reason that I'll never get he always wants it to sound like nothing matters while sitting…
Standard in Soto? Read Shunryu Suzuki, read Kodo Sawaki, read Uchiyama Roshi, Dogen (first version of Fukanzazengi for example), Deshimaru….they don't talk about breath or to see thoughts and let them go? Read it again maybe…or checkout the sotoshu booklet on zazen 😉
Hi 9.57am,
Guys I never mentioned "concentration". No, buddy did.
You wrote "…let awareness do its thing". I like that.
"Apart from their other characteristics, the outstanding thing about China's 600 million people is that they are "poor and blank". This may seem a bad thing, but in reality it is a good thing. Poverty gives rise to the desire for changes the desire for action and the desire for revolution. On a blank sheet of paper free from any mark, the freshest and most beautiful characters can be written; the freshest and most beautiful pictures can be painted." Mao Zedong
RE: different types of sitting, even from two teachers who have the same root teacher
Jundo has now posted that he and Brad are different with regard to what they emphasize in teaching "how to" sit. Jundo said that even though he and Brad come from the same teacher, they are as different as jazz and punk rock. Presumably, Jundo is calling himself the jazz artist.
Quoteth:
"Piano students of the same piano teacher, as they mature and come to find their own sound, need not play Brahms exactly the same way as each other or their Teacher. Heck, some may eventually prefer a bit jazzier sound, some Jerry Lee, some punk rock! (Hey Brad, do they play pianos much in punk? ) Somewhat different intonations, fingering, somewhat different flavor or emphasis, harmony and disharmony, varying degrees of following or breaking musical tradition and "the rules"."
However, all the same piano, same 88 keys, same notes and chords, one with deeper understanding while another might have a punk rock emphasis!"
"But for some reason that I'll never get he (Brad) always wants it to sound like nothing matters while sitting…"
Hi Anon, I don't think I ever heard Brad say that nothing matters while sitting. What I heard or gathered and feel is that everything matters and nothing is unimportant. Even daydreams tell you something. If it's important it will return. Whatever happens during shikantaza is whatever happens.
CAPTCHA : only loreopun : I kid you not
Hi Treeleaf Reader,
"However, all the same piano, same 88 keys, same notes and chords, one with deeper understanding while another might have a punk rock emphasis!"
Did you make that bit up? Coz I can't find it. I found:
"Somewhat different intonations, fingering, somewhat different flavor or emphasis, harmony and disharmony, varying degrees of following or breaking musical tradition and "the rules". However, all the same piano, same 88 keys, same notes and chords. Hopefully all good music."
from here: http://www.treeleaf.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t;=4673&p;=69837&hilit;=brad#p69837
– which is a response to this:
"Also interesting that dharma heirs of the same ancestor can have such different views! i.e. Brad Warner with his correct-posture-is-everything, lotus-is-essential view."
No, Kaishin aka Matt aka ?? (was Matto) – Brad Warner has never insisted that lotus is essential or that correct posture is everything.
Oh dear.
That was naughty Treeleaf Reader Troll. We all love Jundo talk but there is no need to make stuff up. You hit us were we are weak. Jundo is our chocolate. We cannot get enough of him. We think, "Maybe he will have one of his funny public meltdowns again, Oh Goody!" Look how fast 108 beat it over there for proof. Those moments are pure gold. They are good for weeks of analysis and speculation. Oh what a guilty pleasure! He is the BEST afterall. Jundo Cohen is a bad muther..
108 is magnificent!
😉
Look how fast 108 beat it over there for proof.
I'd prefer:
'…beat it over there to demonstrate his profoundly intuitive insight into shit-stirring bullshit, thus to nip it in the bud.'
…Or what exposed troll just said. Either is fine.
Yeah, great troll-busting there, sport. Well done. You have stopped a HUGE battle.
Would that you were in Poland in 1939.
No Treeleaf Troll.. YOU are magnificent! 108 is only like the rest of us, looking for amusement where it happens. Only you thought to lie about someone in order to make them look silly. It was grand in it's cruelty. It was inspired evil.
Dude as I read it the troll didn't change much. I guess just the slightest of tweeks is enough to bring Jundo out of hiding, as we all know he reads the comments on this site every day, probably multiple times/day.
"It was grand in it's cruelty. It was inspired evil."
Grammar problems aside, don't you think you're going a bit overboard in your characterization of what I've done.
*falls to knees in prayer position and chants verse of purification while crying*
Thanks, peachy! 🙂
"Grammar problems aside, don't you think you're going a bit overboard in your characterization of what I've done."
Probably. I get carried away. It almost looked like you were trying to hurt someone for fun.
Mommy, mommy!
Just what we need – yet another meditation cult.
Brad:
I sent you some "literature" to peruse. The good news is it may be worth exactly what you paid for it (e.g. nothing).
Maum is a momminization of AUM or, more properly O'om – the so-called 'sacred' Hindu phoneme. (It once preceded the Buddhist Mantras)
Cheers,
Chas
… as in Somerset? I'd cast you as Elliott Templeton 🙂
"It almost looked like you were trying to hurt someone for fun."
I deem your remarks passive-aggressive.
Christianity, Judaism and Buddhism have made significant contributions to political life, but their relevance to the problems of community are arguably never greater than when they depart from the modern political script and remind us that there is also value to be had in standing in a big hall singing a hymn or in ceremoniously washing a stranger's feet or in sitting at a table with neighbors and partaking of lamb stew and conversation. These rituals, as much as the deliberations inside parliaments and law courts, are what help to hold our fractious and fragile societies together.
Alain de Botton said…
"These rituals, as much as the deliberations inside parliaments and law courts, are what help to hold our fractious and fragile societies together."
au contraire – these rituals (e.g. Westboro) are what tear societies apart! And such evils have persisted for century upon century!
There is no greater evil than power concentrated in the greedy hands of the very few. Sad, but true.
Latin motto: Sic Semper Tyrannis – "Thus Always to Tyrants" Adopted in 1776. The two figures are personifying the motto. The woman, Pallas Athena, represents Virginia. The man holding a scourge and chain shows that he is a tyrant – a dead King, his fallen crown is nearby. Athena, helmet lifted so that she can be seen, has her left breast, knee, and foot bare…
Hidden – in plain view.
Directly opposing the Modernists and the "Enlightenment" (ahem), Nietzsche exposed their ideals for what they actually were: a model based on the very religious authority they proposed to overthrow with "reason and logic."
The natural order of things is random and chaotic: things come together and blow apart, come together, and blow apart…(Heraclitus). There is no carrot on a stick of a "better life" or world.
Reality is what is happening right now, to you.
No Harry, I am not a cog in the
social machine. And neither was the
Buddha.
I'm surprised by your comments
about Brad. I respect that his
words are coming from the right
place.
Fred,
Hi, didn't know the guy (Buddha, that is), but, if he was like every other human being that exists, he was very much of his place and time… and, yes, he's already of the unconditioned eternal-never-now too of course (if we want to get all smoke and mirrors about it).
Sorry, I don't believe in a right place, but I'm glad I surprised somebody (I tend to bore).
Regards,
Harry.
At the same time, Dogen's Fukanzazengi is a highly revered text within Soto Zen and it presents the postural and (for want of a better term) philosophical teaching of zazen.
The traditional Soto approach is to give a detailed explanation of the posture, but little or no explanation of the mental process. Dogen's terse and cryptic remarks in the Fukanzazengi certainly fits the pattern:
"Think of not thinking. Not thinking—what kind of thinking is that? Nonthinking."
An observation, not a criticism.
INSTRUCTIONS: Fill in the blank in the following phrase using any word in the list below.
Reality is what is happening right now, ______ you.
aboard
about
above
across
after
against
along
amid
among
anti
around
as
at
before
behind
below
beneath
beside
besides
between
beyond
but
by
concerning
considering
despite
down
during
except
excepting
excluding
following
for
from
in
inside
into
like
minus
near
of
off
on
onto
opposite
outside
over
past
per
plus
regarding
round
save
since
than
through
to
toward
towards
under
underneath
unlike
until
up
upon
versus
via
with
within
without
"I deem your remarks passive-aggressive."
Hurts don't it?
Yeah dude. You torture Jundo but whine like a little baby when the tables are turned. Your Mom is passive-agressive.
Jinzang: "The traditional Soto approach is to give a detailed explanation of the posture, but little or no explanation of the mental process."
Well, I'm not so worried about the criticism of things, I'm just not sure it's accurate to say that there's little/no explanation of the mental process. For example, from Fukanzazengi:
…If the least like or dislike arises, the Mind is lost in confusion…
…You should therefore cease from practice based on intellectual understanding, pursuing words and following after speech, and learn the backward step that turns your light inwardly to illuminate your self…
…Do not think good or bad. Do not administer pros and cons. Cease all the movements of the conscious mind, the gauging of all thoughts and views. Have no designs on becoming a Buddha…
That's pretty clear; and it's traditionally chanted and is a very prominant text traditionally otherwise.
It may be fair to say that the latter day Soto orthodoxy (that Brad strongly echos at times via his teacher) tends towards the sit only 'magic posture' position; but, while it may arguably be called 'Soto Zen' it is by no means the entirity of the teaching, nor the approach, outlined by Dogen Zenji. I rather think he wrote things down in such detail as he did to avoid such misunderstandings and extremes.
Regards,
Harry.
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Harry, Dogen also said there is no need for extraordinary efforts. If you sit in the manner he outlined you need not do anything else.
Harry,
"Cogs in the social machine" in the context Fred and Brad are using it doesn't have to be interpreted as synonymous with human beings "being very much of their place and time."
"Cogs in the social machine" presents human beings "being very much of their place and time" using metaphors that foreground the deterministic and the materialistic.
When this phrase is used negatively, or in a negative context, it is explicitly or implicitly set in contrast to a more humanistic attitude.
Sometimes this contrast frames things in terms of opposition, ie "I'm not a machine, I'm a spiritual being"; or insufficiency ie, "I'm not just a cog or node in a social network, and I don't have to behave like some numbed animal enslaved to its conditioned patterns."
Your view appears to derive from a revisionist definition of the common understanding and usage of the cliche "cogs in the social machine" in order to express the view that we should be more realistic about that side of human life. But this useful way of realigning the cliche in order to frame your view has also been used as a way to frame and interpret Brad's view.
In this light, I think your argument is more about the dangers of using cliches and slogans than it is about the dangers of the view Brad is presenting.
I am sympathetic to your concerns regarding "Fuck you Zen" as you have outlined them, but couldn't it be possible that Brad is realigning "Fuck you Zen" in a similar way to how you have with "cogs in the social machine."
I wonder if this also goes for "coming from the right place" and even "intuition"?
In the end it might all come down to how we fix our terms up and how we react to different modes of expression. Or perhaps the sticky dopplegangers we form over time that in part inform our views on folks views – and that have a tendency to 'hide', even as we admit to their warm, fallible fingers typing away before the pixels.
ST
"Harry, Dogen also said there is no need for extraordinary efforts. If you sit in the manner he outlined you need not do anything else."
Hi, Anon.
Dogen said lots of things. All I can say is that life, for me, involves a lot more than sitting in the way Dogen (or anybody else) outlines.
Regards,
Harry.
"In the end it might all come down to how we fix our terms up and how we react to different modes of expression."
Hi, ST.
I think it's more a question of what we mean. I think we always mean something even if we can't always express it perfectly, or even remotely accurately, in words. We mightn't even recognise what we mean: what we mean might only be understood by others looking/listening to our words, with thier inherent frames of reference etc. This is why communication is so important (as mentioned earlier). If we keep communicating, our meaning can become clearer even as the words change from situation to situation (if we remain open to possibilities, and not closed minded in what we think we are, and/or what others are, say): To ramble into Dogen-speak, I think words really only mean what they mean in their present real context: Existence-meaning. Consensus meaning outside that seems speculative. It seems we generally tend to look at it the other way round tho… which is not entirely invalid of course.
"Or perhaps the sticky dopplegangers we form over time that in part inform our views on folks views – and that have a tendency to 'hide', even as we admit to their warm, fallible fingers typing away before the pixels."
One thing I appreciate about Brad is that he 'throws it out there'. The possible alternative of sitting around in a sort of confused analytical haze may be more restricting… that's another extreme dichotomous straw man, I know; but our simple monkey-brains can take them in quickly.
Regards,
Harry.
"All I can say is that life, for me, involves a lot more than sitting in the way Dogen (or anybody else) outlines."
Harry, Of course life involves more than just sitting.. I was speaking of a small part of life, shikantaza. You are certainly free to adorn your Buddhism however you wish.
Hi, Anon.
Dogen said all sort of things about the nature of effort including, yes, the view clearly expressed in Fukanzazengi. He seemingly put certain sects on his 'shit list' and then seems to go on to state that all schools are the same if they engage in sincere practices. He also criticised shikantaza when it is 'dead sitting' right alongside criticisng practicing koan as some sort of mental negation/ unrational exercise… and he also said that we should employ the words/accounts of past masters, which he himself employed in very creative ways.
In short, it seems to me that he didn't mean to install the sort of dour, constricted orthodoxy that has sprung up in certain sections of the Soto Sect with all its attendant sectarian assumptions and reactions to what it mispercieves to be other sects/practices.
Regards,
Harry.
You don't have to sit to stop the
mind. It might be easier to see
what's right here, when there are
no distractions to hook the
attention. But what is it that
needs to be free of distractions
other than some illusion of self.
The right place is the other side
of the gateless gate which is right
here now.
Harry,
(thanks for the reply)
"To ramble into Dogen-speak, I think words really only mean what they mean in their present real context: Existence-meaning."
I would agree with that.
In my hazy view though, what I understand as 'consensus meaning' is much like 'inherent frames of references'.
I think (to ramblingly explore/clarify) each 'bit' of language as experienced as a moment of (mis)understanding/meaning – whether it be a phrase, word, even a single letter, or the summative moment at the end of a passage has its 'present real context' its existence-meaning position, of which consensus meaning, frames of references etc come together with so much else.
The process of reading or writing a passage includes many such moments after moments with their befores and afters (Be it Dogen or Leibniz here as hazy frames of reference!).
And each position, in my view, is as much an intra-communicative 'event' as it is an inter- communicative one – each implying the formative 'course' the extended piece or expression negotiates towards its summative moment.
So I'm not sure that the 'consensus meaning' (as I understand your use of the term) is really 'outside' at all, but if anything part of the 'speculative' weave of the existence-language-meaning fabric through which existence-meaning is actualised at any given moment (of expressing through reading/expressing through writing).
I think in this light perhaps what you are pointing to is how we can fall into attempting to weigh in too heavily on the consensus/common/given aspect of language: where the shared or common meanings of words are used to make a kind of imaginary, fixed, group-think meaning where we can all agree on what an idea is – an idealistic assumption we can end up speculating into and from (speculum upon speculum).
For me, 'Fixing our terms up' is something we do when we communicate: we adjust what we meant or what we think we mean dialogically in intra and inter expressive acts, each its own situation or moment.
Of course, that 'fixing' can go astray through all manner of fixed sticking points, which are also involved in the formation of our expressive acts.
One might say that our monkey-brains are like cogs in the language machine, involved in its language games, and that realising and clarifying how is one way we and language continue to go beyond.
An analytical mode can be a way to clarify and explore and sharpen the tools as much as it can make one a speculating tool. All other modes – demotic and vernacular, poetical and metaphorical to name but two can be used in such ways and with their own particular pitfalls and digressions, methinks.
Sorry for the possible headaches reading this may induce.
ST
"An analytical mode can be a way to clarify and explore and sharpen the tools as much as it can make one a speculating tool. All other modes – demotic and vernacular, poetical and metaphorical to name but two can be used in such ways and with their own particular pitfalls and digressions, methinks."
ST,
I think the intention in doing it/ saying it, is of great import. I'm not convinced the 'tools' even need to be sharp if we're not involved in the business of using language in a 'heightened' way.
Personally I like fuzziness where language is concerned. And I'm into language.
As can be seen in poetry, and in a lot of Zen literature, language can be used in a way that, if you like, 'subverts' what is generally thought of as 'meaning'… And I think it does that with a very specific intentional basis. That has it's own sort of meaning and reason, as Dogen was keen to indicate… he didn't leave us hanging in voidness.
Regards,
Harry.
II aslo lkie fzzuy langugae.
Scríobh sé Harry:
As can be seen in poetry, and in a lot of Zen literature, language can be used in a way that, if you like, 'subverts' what is generally thought of as 'meaning'…
As brilliantly demonstrated by D. Hofstadter in Gödel, Escher, Bach, when he tackles, among other things, the Lewis Carroll Jaberwocky poem…
Language is just another belief system.