Grace Schireson doesn’t like me. I think we should get that out of the way right at the top of this page. She read bits and pieces of my book Zen Wrapped in Karma Dipped in Chocolate and decided I was a sexual predator in Zen robes, and even worse than some of the other perps because I openly bragged about it.
This is not true at all.
That book is, in part, an attempt to do precisely what Grace says she wants to do in her recent open letter in which she says that she is “committed to changing … the idealization of the teacher’s status that has been so detrimental to students.” I figured I’d do that more powerfully than those who write books and Internet screeds about the bad things other people do. By revealing the less than stellar aspects of my own life I hoped that people would see all of us in this Zen business in a different light. But that hardly matters since Grace’s 2012 article about me on Sweeping Zen will, it seems, stand forever as a warning to all to beware of Brad Warner and his “self-serving alleged seductions and … promoting [his] right to have sex with any woman who attends [his] teaching.”
This is how it works in the world of institutions and political power.
Which is why, even though I agree with all but one line in Grace’s letter, I think that letter is wrongheaded and potentially destructive simply because of that single line which shows precisely what Grace’s intent really is. It’s not about stopping sexual predators. Not in the least. It uses that hot-button topic as a way to push for an altogether different agenda.
Here is Grace’s letter:
As Zen teachers, we would like to express our gratitude for Buddhadharma’s recent issue on abuse in Buddhist communities. We also appreciated Mr. Oppenheimer’s piece in The Atlantic for “The Zen Predator of the Upper East Side.” We are referring to the discussion and reports on the abuse of power and authority of Zen Teacher Eido Shimano and others. We believe exposing this problem is a positive step in the direction of preventing such abuses in the future. Many women and others in the Zen community have suffered as a result, and we regret and apologize for our collective failure to stop this harm. Thanks to Mr. Oppenheimer’s efforts, women have come forward, some even using their names; we think this kind of courage can only embolden other survivors of abuse to speak out.
We have pledged to look and listen to our communities and to build more visible ethics codes, working toward consensus on national standards on behavior and oversight, and seeking outside consultation to educate and empower students to come forward if they have been abused. Unlike either our Asian counterparts or American Judeo-Christian clergy, the American Zen tradition does not yet have a central authorizing body capable of sanctioning and removing a harmful teacher.
Even so, as Zen Buddhist community leaders we are committed to changing the culture of silence and the idealization of the teacher’s status that has been so detrimental to students. As Mr. Oppenheimer points out, scoundrels and sociopaths will always walk among us—sometimes as teachers and priests. While ethics and changes in the balance of power cannot completely halt these scoundrels, we are working steadily to make our communities more aware of these dangers as a way to prevent abuse. We view the revelations concerning Eido Shimano as a wake-up call to each of us to pay close attention to the safety of the members of our community, and to monitor our own behavior as well as that of others.
It’s signed by 90 prominent Zen teachers, some of whom are close friends of mine. I was sad to see their names on that list.
The line that gives the game away is right in the middle of the piece. It goes, “Unlike either our Asian counterparts or American Judeo-Christian clergy, the American Zen tradition does not yet have a central authorizing body capable of sanctioning and removing a harmful teacher.” This ends paragraph two, and the next paragraph begins with the words “even so,” indicating that the establishment of this authorizing body is how Grace intends to remedy the problem.
I agree with every other line in the letter. I’ll say that again since people sometimes seem to miss these kinds of points when I make them. I agree with every other line in the letter.
I don’t like the tone of some of it. I don’t like the use of the word “scoundrels.” Scoundrels tie pretty Polly to the railroad tracks in old silent movies until the hero in the white hat (Grace?) can come along and save them. I have my doubts about the efficacy of “visible ethics codes,” besides which we already have one, a little thing we like to call the Buddhist Precepts. The idea of “consensus on national standards of behavior and oversight” is pretty chilling too, if you ask me. But still, I agree with what Grace is trying to say in her rather clumsily over-the-top prose.
Even so, I would never sign such a letter (not that Grace would have asked me) because it really boils down to just two messages. 1) Don’t blame the 90 of us who signed this because we’re the good guys, it’s those other bad Zen teachers who did this stuff and 2) The best way to solve the problem is to establish a “central authorizing body capable of sanctioning and removing a harmful teacher,” and, by the way, who do you think should run that organization?
I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again. Anyone who might get their skivvies in a twist over what I’m saying here need not worry. I am clearly on the losing side of this argument. Within two decades at the most there will be a central authorizing body capable of sanctioning and removing those it judges to be “harmful” Zen teachers. Some of those it sanctions and removes will genuinely be harmful while others will be people who speak out in ways the central authorizing body does not approve of or simply cannot understand. They’ll be able to do more than just write articles about people they don’t like. They’ll be able to ruin them forever.
We’ve seen this before.
* * *
Tomorrow January 17, 2015, just like almost every Saturday, I will be leading zazen starting at 9:30am at the Veteran’s Memorial Complex, 4117 Overland Blvd., Culver City, California. All are welcome. Beginner’s are encouraged. Come along if you’re not scared of me.
Also, next Monday, January 19, 2015, just like almost every other Monday, I’ll be leading zazen starting at 8:00pm at Silverlake Yoga 2810 1/2 Glendale Blvd. Studio 2, Los Angeles, CA
And, as always, your kind donations are very much appreciated!
The quickest way to turn a hot, evolving, living way of life like Zen is to create a governing body that will stifle the life and evolution of it. I feel like in the U.S. so many of the leaders of the Zen movement already do too much to impede the progress in the name of “tradition.” But, ironically, such thoughts refuse to acknowledge Zen’s “original face” which has very little to do with the superficial tradition (this is not to say that there’s anything automatically or inherently “wrong” with valuing traditions–just that there’s a delicate balance between doing so in a way so that it doesn’t become blind adherence because “that’s the way it was done.”).
Obviously their are skeevy teachers/leaders out there. But that’s why getting the word out and communicating with as many people as possible is so important. You’ll never be able to completely absolve yourself of such people, and there will always be plenty of people who will want to be taught (or sexed) by these kinds of people anyway. So all you can do is let people know exactly what they’re getting into and hope they make a decision that works well for them.
The quickest way to turn a hot, evolving, living way of life like zen *into a cold, staid, lifeless zombie way of life*….
… where can dust alight?
Perhaps she’s the type that deep down…really dislikes men.
I’m not coming to practice because I’m afraid of you.
Not really. It is just a bit too far from New York. Sorry.
I agree with your post. Although, if there was a central authority, and they put you on the committee, that might be interesting. You could write a tell-all book!
Strange how a person’s (Grace’s) preconceived viewpoints can ‘flavor’ an entire movement, isn’t being able to ‘see’ others more clearly one of the major points of practicing Zen?
And that one about not causing harm to others, isn’t already part of the Zen rules of behavior(perhaps I don’t have that one right)?
Also, isn’t the central tenet of Buddhism about personal responsibility for actions and inactions? If a sangha doesn’t chose to act when a person is being abused, haven’t they chosen to abrogate this central tenet?
Perhaps I’m just too, unlearned to understand such lofty ideals, I’ll stick to sitting – leave the rules and regulations to the people who actually understand this better.
Actually the whole reason that I’m posting is:
Since you are probably feeling a little on the outs right now, I just wanted to say, thank you. Thank you for your spunky writing, creating books that are clear enough for a 14 year old to read (as well as old people like me). Without your writings I never would have found my ‘place’ my sangha, Soto Zen fits me so easily.
I’m not so alone in my thoughts anymore, keep writing. And yes, I’ve read all your books.
Godzilla rules.
When I saw the picture at the top of this article I thought that Grace had finally removed the huge stick that has been up her butt all these years. After reading the letter I realized that I was mistaken.
I agree with Grace and her clumsy prose. It’s needed.
But seriously, folks…
It’s a shame that the Holy Roman Catholic Church never had “a central authorizing body capable of sanctioning and removing a harmful teacher.” Having some kind of central authority might have prevented centuries of thousands, if not millions, of children and adults being raped and abused.
Looks like she spanked you Brad, and you’re still angry and embarrassed about that.
Possibly. But what did she spank me for?
Good question! What exactly did Grace spank Brad for, from her perspective, to the best of your understanding? Hone in on that and state it as clearly as possible, without comment or rebuttal. You may find that this is 99% of what is necessary.
So I signed the letter and stand by the intent of it, and I also get your point about the central organizing body piece. I don’t see that as ever really having traction as long as transmission is a face to face lineage and not an institutional one. You would have to have transmission be something thats given by a central organization in order for them to take it away or whatever, and thats antithetical to the tradition as far as I can see. I don’t know anyone in my generation of folks who would be ok with that. I’m certainly not. And I feel as a younger generation teacher that it was good for me to sign it and send some kind of signal to both the community that I serve and the older generation that this sexual predator crap is not acceptable and that I’m willing to put myself on the line of accountability about it. As far as it goes, the Toledo Sangha can fire me if I pull this kind of stuff someday, and that it is in our by-laws matters. At lest I think so…
Thank you Risen! I understand that attitude.
But doesn’t everybody already know that the sexual predator crap is unacceptable? Does anyone think it’s OK? I don’t think even Shimano’s students or Sasaki’s thought it was OK. They knew it was bad but they didn’t know what to do about it. Sasaki’s folks tried a number of ways but they failed. They, and Shimano’s students also tried covering it up, which never works.
I believe this may have been more of a sign of the times than evidence something is specifically wrong with our tradition. Americans & Europeans in the 60s and 70s longed for gurus. They wanted badly to believe. This was a large trend at the time. Even though some people still want to believe in powerful and perfect teachers who can save them if only they obey, there are far fewer now. I’m sure some cases of abuse will still happen, but they’ll be on a smaller scale. Or perhaps I’m overly optimistic.
Sure people today know its not ok, and they didn’t really know what to do about it in Sasaki’s case. So the deal with the formalizing of a process in the by-laws is to create a super clear answer to that question of what to do. I’m a professor of music at the university here and there are clear processes in place for action to be taken if a faculty member gets involved in a sexual way with a student – same deal. It seems to me that this clear process has probably effected some prohibitive effect in cases that could have gone either way in the academic world since they were adopted and I expect that the same will hold for Zen teachers and sanghas – no one will be able to squiggle out of this, and the students have real options for action.
And your point about guru longing makes sense, along with the free love trend of the same decades to boot. So yes, I think that there will be less of this stuff, and taking public stands about it and creating clear processes is a piece of helping that along.
Then we can all get on to making the next set of mistakes, whatever they may be…
“Unlike either our Asian counterparts or American Judeo-Christian clergy, the American Zen tradition does not yet have a central authorizing body capable of sanctioning and removing a harmful teacher.”
I seem to be missing something. How exactly would you go about removing a teacher? It’s not like zen teachers are employees in an institution.
Or is this an attempt to create such an institution?
If a centralized “Zen Institute of Dharma Correctness” is ever established, a teacher could avoid the danger of being removed by not joining in the first place.
Cheers.
Brad, last week you said fuck religion.
So this week we say fuck zen and fuck grace schireson. No big deal.
She’s got a pretty big ego for an abbess.
Anyway, there’s a process in place for realization, and that process will go on without the trappings of organizational grandiosity
Well, I serve the Buddhist Temple of Toledo and the Great Heartland Sangha as Abbot. I get a small salary for the efforts and have a job description and responsibilities, a leadership council for the Sangha that I answer to, we are organized as a 501c3, etc…
Nice.
Rinsen,
Thanks for the information.
Still, though, wouldn’t the two organizations you mention have to join this hypothetical zen institute in order to be removed from that organization?
Stated that way it’s a tautology, but it still seems like a legitimate question.
I have a bottom-line distrust of organizations myself so I can understand why the idea of having a central zen command could be problematic. But is it really an issue or just an instinctive fear of organizations?
Cheers.
Cheers.
“wouldn’t the two organizations you mention have to join this hypothetical zen institute in order to be removed from that organization?”
I’m not pitching for any hypothetical zen institute, and I don’t think one could ever really have traction as I stated elsewhere in this thread, so no. The organizations themselves should have the power to give the boot to a dangerous teacher. So I can be booted from the community I serve if I become a danger to it.
Rinsen,
I’d agree that the local community (sangha) should be the organization that has the power to unseat a teacher.
I also think that you are right that no zen institute could ever gain traction in this country. We have to much of an individualistic/outsider worshiping culture to allow for that.
Cheers.
Hey Brad,
To the best of your knowledge, is there a central body in Japan that can strip a teacher of their responsibilities or worse that exists in Japan…?
And if there is, why then would that be a bad thing to have here?
Why Shodo, because the people doing the stripping are not worthy of wearing the robes. They are attached to their fucking overinflated egos.
The Soto-shu exists and I believe they can kick someone out of their club if they want. However, I do not believe they can “de-frock” someone the way the Catholic Church can. Dharma transmission is considered to be something that passes from teacher to student, not from the institution. Even when a teacher wants to un-transmit someone (and this has happened) it isn’t really possible. I’ve heard of teachers appealing to Soto-shu to do this and being told that Soto-shu does not do it.
I don’t think anyone over here could do anything more than that. They could create an organization whose membership would be voluntary and they could kick someone out of that group. But they couldn’t un-teacher-ize or un-transmit anyone.
Yes. Once you are transmitted to thats that. The transmitting teacher can regret if thats the case, but they can’t revoke. So its important in my view that the local level organizations that happen around teachers (mine included) have the ability to fire a teacher for truly heinous missteps. Thats where the balance of power lies, not in revoking transmission which can’t be done. So that I have a masters degree in Jazz studies from the New England Conservatory is an un-revokable fact. That I play as well (or as poorly) as I do is an un-revokable fact. But that I have a position as a professor of music at the University of Toledo music department is a very revoke-able fact – as it should be. If I or any of the other professors or educators anywhere should prove to be a danger to the students they are there to serve they should get the boot. So competency in the field, having the degree and being a reliable and safe guide to others in the discipline are not all the same thing for university professors. And Zen is not different in this regard. Or at least is shouldn’t be…
I’m finding it hard to see your argument against it Fred.
The “unworthy” people in robes seem perfect candidates for stripping the “unworthy” teachers of their power when they abuse thier responsibilities and sanghas….
If you have any better candidates for the job, let them stand forth… Show me the perfect teacher Fred. 😉
There aren’t any, and Grace needs to step down from her self appointed loftiness
and if the Buddha really did say that sticking your penis in a woman’s vagina is like sticking your penis in a black adder’s mouth, that goes for married people too.
throw them all out, including the fornicating abbesses.
Doing nothing is not a solution though – almost 100 years of abuses and manipulation from Sazaki and Eido combined.
I would rather there be an imperfect body that can do somthing about abusive teachers than the nothing we have currently.
do you really give a shit, Shodo?
I really give a shit Fred. 🙂
A shit stick. The traditional latrine tool used in ancient Zen monasteries. That is exactly what Grace is holding in her left hand in that photo. Wow, some Zen traditionalists are even more extreme than Civil War reenactors.
Now if I could just figure out how she got her hair caught in the pepper mill in her right hand…
I don’t know Grace personally, but from her writing I know that she is a therapist as well as a Zen priest, and also from her writing, I know that she understands and values the restrictions, moral and legal, that apply to those who practice therapy.
Some states have more restrictive laws than others, with regard to clergy relationships with the congregation members; this I also know by reading Grace’s writings. It’s my opinion that based on her experience as a therapist, and on the similarities between the role of therapist and that of clergyman in the modern age, Grace would like to see tougher laws on clergy/congregant relationships in all 50 states.
Zen centers have legal documents connected with their incorporation as a non-profit, and in connection with the ownership of property (I believe). As Rinsen points out, a center can have language included in their terms of incorporation that allows the board to remove or replace the teacher. From what I’ve read, such a provision was finally placed into the terms at Rinzai-ji, and the sangha got Sasaki to sign off on it. The document was a little odd, in that Sasaki retained his right to be the spiritual leader of the community, or some such, but there was no doubt that they had the authority to remove him. They didn’t do so, this was late in the game, and I believe that Sasaki did step down not long after on account of his health (am I getting this right?).
So a Zen teacher could be drummed out of a Zen Center, tarred and feathered and ridden out of town on a rail, and maybe even have their name stricken from “member in good standing” in the Soto Shu or whatever. Nevertheless, they would remain a recipient of the secret mind meld, the document of shame, and the debt that can never be repaid, even if they were incarcerated for clergy/congregant misdemeanors (or are they felonies?– Grace?).
As a result, they would always have be attractive to a certain segment of the population.
“But they couldn’t un-teacher-ize or un-transmit anyone.” Are these the same thing, I think is an interesting question. A non-profit could have by-laws that allow the removal/replacement of a teacher for cause, but although they can’t undo transmission, apparently the Zen tradition still considers the removed individual as qualified to teach to teach Zen. That’s confusing, isn’t it?
In the case of Philip Kapleau, as a weird for instance, I believe he had permission to teach but never received inka, because he and his teacher disagreed about the language that the chants should be done in. So Kapleau was authorized to teach, only. I think he authorized many of his students to teach as well, and I think everyone assumed it was the same as transmission.
how now, brown cow.
Mark –
Its not really so much that ‘the entire zen tradition’ (there is no such thing that I know of – I don’t’ get any info from the entire zen tradition of which I or Brad or anyone else is an official member and representative or anything like that) permanently considers the person capable of teaching. Rather I would say that we as transmitted teachers would all recognize that the persons transmitting teacher considered that the they would be capable of teaching when they gave them the transmission. Thats about all I can say for sure about Brad, or that he can say about me without some kind of personal checking in or something.
So for example I know that Gudo Nishijima Roshi had confidence enough in Brad to give him the transmission, and Brad knows that James Ford Roshi had confidence enough in me to give me the transmission. Thats about what I know about the other signatures on that list for sure.
So our teachers had a hopefully well informed hunch about us being able to help others on this path and they made their move.
And I also know for sure that any transmitting teacher is capable of being wrong – myself included.
Just as important is what my teacher calls the sangha transmission – the blessing of the sangha over time. If you call yourself a baseball coach and no one is on your team you, your not really a baseball coach, and if you call yourself a Zen teacher and have no Zen students one is not really a zen teacher either.
So of the 90 or so of us who signed the letter, I suspect that not everyone would un-reservedly vouch for the credibility of each other as awesome teachers as some kind of unquestionable fact. As a signer of the letter myself, I would feel comfortable enough only to say that anyone on that list had the confidence of their transmitting teacher for some time.
Its kinda like saying that anyone with a masters in music was at one time bad ass enough on their instrument to convince their professors that they were worth the degree. It doesn’t mean that they have any kind of right to a gig – that has to be earned every concert, over and over again. And if someone losses the edge to play at concerto level, it doesn’t mean that they didn’t have it together enough to get the degree at one point.
So no, I wouldn’t consider someone who was given the boot for real reasons to be credible as a teacher any longer. I’d also hold up that they could work through their shit and come out the other side – thats possible. But its also possible that they don’t.
This is a really human thing its really not some special ‘beyond everything else in human experience’ deal. At least I don’t experience it that way…
Brad, sorry if I’m takin up space on your conversation. I don’t usually post, but was kinda compelled on this one as a signature on the letter your making a critique of…
(apologies on my lack of editing, above. “to teach to teach”, definitely confusing.)
And then there’s Richard Baker stating that Reb Anderson never got the final clap of the magic hand in transmission, because he never finished certain ritual paperwork with Baker.
Maybe this had some relationship to Baker’s claim that the S. F. Zen Center couldn’t do anything with their property without his approval because he was the “person of record” for the non-profit.
‘I don’t like the tone of some of it. I don’t like the use of the word “scoundrels.” Scoundrels tie pretty Polly to the railroad tracks in old silent movies until the hero in the white hat (Grace?) can come along and save them.’
Agreed. To me, the deliberate choice of words in that carefully crafted ‘open’ letter – ‘scoundrel’, just about the most insipid, passive-aggressive term possible in the context – is quite revealing. Maybe I over-interpret, but it stinks of denied anger that has nothing to do with the issue at hand, but leaks out anyway. Scoundrel is backed up with a less friendly, clinical term – ‘sociopath’. I guess sociopath was needed because deep down Grace knows that everybody loves a scoundrel, and many women enjoy having sex with them.
I don’t know Grace Shireson (or Eido Shimano, or Joshu Sasaki either), but I’ve read a few of the lurid articles and comments on the Sweeping Zen site. The holier-than-thou tone, and the blinding psychobabble that I picked up from some of the contributors there made me nauseous. That’s why I started getting my web-Zen fix from Brad Warner’s blog instead. He’s not perfect, but he comes across as basically honest and sincere – without a big hidden or unconscious agenda.
The point I want to make is: what’s wrong with love? Abuse of power is a problem, one adult person wielding power over another is a problem in general, but what’s wrong with love? In the article that Brad references, Grace says that ” You cannot predict the effects of falling in love”, as if it’s a bad thing. YES! When you fall in love, your ego loses a lot of certainty and control. I fell in love a couple of times, and got my heart broken – it was awful sore, but it did me no harm in the long run, I got in touch with my vulnerable humanity and got over some of my narcissism because of it.
The ‘scoundrels’ of the piece, Eido and Joshu, were geriatrics for a lot of the period in question. Old men lose a lot of their inhibitions around sexual behaviour – go to any care home and take a look. They might have had undiagnosed dementia adding to this effect – teachers or not, living buddhas or not. An 80 year old man who gropes a young woman may not be a sociopath – he may just have lost control of his inner (natural, wonderful) scoundrel. A younger woman who accepts the groping because he’s supposed to be a guru who can confer enlightenment is misguided – but it won’t kill her – nobody ever died of being groped in dokusan. If she has an affair with him, she’ll be disappointed. Ho hum, life is disappointment.
Grace Shireson (in my reading of her words) is deeply afraid of love. She may also be afraid of the uncertainty of human relationships. She might even have a distaste for men.
When love fails, we organise. When organisations fail, we go to war. That’s the story of life. Organising Zen along the traditional western model will emasculate it. Allan Watts said most western buddhists were ‘crypto-protestants’. Zen should not become ‘crypto-protestant’ or ‘crypto-judaic’. We cannot solve social problems by brandishing The Book Of The Law ™ – we tried that for 3000 years, and it didn’t work.
Let’s love instead. Grace, take the pickle out of your ass, and replace it with this, my loving open letter.
Nicely stated.
Rinsen,
“This is a really human thing its really not some special ‘beyond everything else in human experience’ deal. At least I don’t experience it that way…”
I’m sure Brad is with you on that one. I’m curiously conflicted, myself.
“So our teachers had a hopefully well informed hunch about us being able to help others on this path and they made their move.”
I understand what you are saying here.
In Japan, mostly it’s the sons of temple masters who take up Zen as a profession, isn’t it? The ones who will inherit. Not so much helping others on the path, as performing their life-ceremonies, especially funerals.
A lot of Zen teachers in the U.S.A. have a profession as well as their transmission, as is your case. Brad is trying to make it as an author and teacher in residence in L.A., so far as I gather, and he struggles by.
“Helping others on the path” is an interesting way to describe what your teacher thought giving you transmission was about. The pope was pretty amazing, when he asked everyone to pray for him out there on the balcony of the Vatican. Like him, you got picked for the job after a lot of dues-paying, and through the demonstration of your capability. I’ll pray for you.
Schireson, amongst many other Zen teachers, knew full well about Genpo and others for years and said nothing and even then they have, for the most part, only addressed the sex scandals, not the other abuses that took place. They’re hypocrites pure and simple.
WTF? “she is “committed to changing … the idealization of the teacher’s status that has been so detrimental to students.”
That’s what you do all the time. It’s like your big mission in the world.
I read her article. It’s so sarcastic it’s not worth paying attention to (um, does that qualify as right speech? Or doesn’t she have to practice that?). And if I recall correctly, you did hook up with someone who once was a student or something (in the Zen dipped in chocolate whatever book), but that wasn’t an abuse of any kind, as far as I’m concerned. Sorry if I’ve got things mixed up.
And here’s the thing. Almost anyone is going to be your student in one way or another when it comes to Zen stuff. Even if they aren’t technically your student. Unless you hook up with TNH or somebody 🙂 So what are you supposed to do? Be celibate? None of my business; I’m just sayin’ (in fact I didn’t finish the chocolatey-sex book because it was SO not my business 🙂
This thing about legal penalties for sex between congregants and clergy must be rather difficult for sex cults. Poor Psychedelic Venus Church! And how would the State regulate the Great Rite?
The Catholic (and other Apostolic Churches) can forbid an ordained person from performing as clergy; they can defrock; they can even excommunicate; but they cannot rescind ordination. If the deacon, priest, or bishop repents and reconciles, they will be reinstated without re-ordination.
Wow. Claire Gesshin Greenwood’s writing just keeps getting better and better. Some solid gold dharma right here.
Brad has said he believes a central body will be instituted despite his misgivings. I doubt that. There are too many lineages that will will not give up their own sovereignty in the matter, and the State can’t impose such a regulatory body in this country.
Consider how many Protestant sects there are – are they becoming fewer? In the Catholic and Orthodox sides of things, there are dozens of independent little groups outside the jurisdiction of the major bodies. In Zen and other traditions with teaching lineages, worthy teachers of irregular formal qualifications are not rare.
Although regulatory bodies will form – some already have – I can’t see a day when a teacher’s membership in one will be an essential and decisive criterion for a student.
I am curious, Brad – are you a member of AZTA or SZBA? If not, have you been feeling pressure to join?
The Zen practice that I came to feel was mine was taught to me by another of Nishijima’s dharma heirs. It can be summarised thus:
1) Sit every day (something I did for seven years and then stopped – for no good reason that I’m aware of. I’ve started sitting again, intermittently, in the past couple of months).
a) There are some books you can read if you want to. There are talks given by people who’ve practised a long time which you can listen to if you want to. There’s a group of fellow practitioners you can meet and sit with and discuss questions you may have about the practice and philospophy of Buddhism, if you want or need to.
That’s it.
In the teaching I encountered – as taught to my teacher by Nishijima – there was no dokusan; no secret; no lofty experience or insight access to which was possible only through a deeply committed relationship with a Dharma-transmitted Master. When I suggested to my teacher that, according to the books and articles I’d read on the history of Zen I should be spending much more time with him – living with him even – if I were to stand a chance of ‘getting it’ he said we were seeing far too much of each other already (once a month for a few hours during a one-day sesshin).
I know that Brad has started doing dokusan with people who attend his retreats, but the approach to Zen/Buddhist practice and philosophy he learnt from Nishijima can’t be much different from that which my teacher learnt and taught to me. It’s a very different approach to most other Zen sanghas I’ve read about (partcularly those in the USA). Grace Schireson’s ideas about the Zen teacher/student relationship and her fears of abusive teacher/student behaviour are very different from Brad’s because – apart from being very different people – Grace Schireson’s approach to, practice of, and understanding of Zen/Buddhism is very different. In many ways.
EDIT
* It’s a very different approach to that of most other Zen sanghas…
“Grace Shireson (in my reading of her words) is deeply afraid of love. She may also be afraid of the uncertainty of human relationships. She might even have a distaste for men. ”
Yes, she’s undoing her own damage through her work.
And when she becomes Queen Pope of the Western Zen World she can excommunicate all the male heretics. But that’s not enough to reach the source of
her disturbance.
How so…?
Is that question addressed to me, Shodo?
If yes –
As I understand it, Grace Schireson practises a kind of hybrid Rinzai/Soto Zen which includes a koan curriculum: She holds the key to unlocking the gateless gate, access to which is possible only via an intimate relationship with a true Zen Master – a Master who (quoting from Grace’s bio on the SFZC site*) is “empowered” to teach koans and transmit the (secret) Dharma. No such intimate and dependent relationship with an authorized secret key holder is necessary in Nishijima/Brad’s Zen. That makes her approach to the relationship between a Zen teacher and ‘student’ very different to Brad’s.
*http://www.sfzc.org/cc/display.asp?catid=2,6,127&pageid=376
Also see (very revealing about Grace’s feelings towards her own teachers): http://news.sfzc.org/content/view/953/46/
The life force acting through a conditioned ego in terms of patterns of behavior.
http://www.ericberne.com/games-people-play/rapo/
+5 bonus points for that one, Fred. I was reminded of Eric Berne and TA when I read Grace’s Sweeping Zen articles… and I hadn’t heard Berne’s name mentioned for a long while before. Her prose reeks of gameyness.
Brad, you should be careful – all the signs point to Grace having an unhealthy attraction to you. If you engage in too much dialogue with her, she’ll try to humiliate you publicly… it’s just her way of getting off without the risk of human contact.
(Of course, GS is a committed, transmitted and well-meaning teacher. And I’m just a slack-jawed fannypiece on the internet, who never took any precepts not to slander. So you may prefer to ignore me.)
Are you referring to yourself Fred?
Which self, Idiot?
This one!
No, this one!
Actually, this one!
Anon 108: “Also see (very revealing about Grace’s feelings towards her own teachers): http://news.sfzc.org/content/view/953/46/”
Hilarious! GS: “I have my own internal Roshi-o-meter, and I felt the Roshi-o-meter register off the scale at our first meeting…”.
Well, Grace, I have an internal shite detector, and it just hit 11.4 on the Richter Scale. Roshi-o-meter my hole – you’re Desperately Seeking Daddy.
…
For all you budding scoundrels out there, here’s a rough guide to powerfully thrusting your needle right up a student’s roshi-o-meter:
Step 1) Before meeting the student (ideally in a semi-darkened sanzen room, with the light behind you, so your eyeballs look like black saucers), do some zazen.
Step 1a) Using the Rinzai-shu approach of deep diaphragmatic breathing while concentrating on the area below your belly button is advised: your parasympathetic nervous system will become over-charged, and your body will exude the hormone oxytocin: which magically makes you trustworthy. A student with an immature personality (daddy/mommy issues) will have no defence against this.
Step 1b) Keep your eyes half shut and half focussed during zazen. It amplifies the effects of 1a), and means you will be very aware of your own bodily impulses. Thus, you can under-react to anything the student says or does, making you seem powerful and ‘clear’.
Step 2) Ensure that the student has undergone sensory and social deprivation. Sesshins are great for this.
Step 3) When the student enters, maintain an open posture (lotus is ideal), and a deadpan expression. This lets them project all their deepest longings and fantasies onto you.
Step 4) Holding eye contact, humour them for a couple of minutes. Occasionally give a slightly critical gesture with an eyebrow, or a momentary frown (keeps them wondering). Your mark’s dopamine and seratonin levels will spike: they will mistake this for some kind of religious experience.
Step 5) Without warning, ring the bell, and get rid of them. If you choose the right moment, they will be left in a trance state, with you as the object of all their attention and affection
Step 6) Repeat steps 1 through 5 occasionally over a few months. Otherwise minimise contact with the student. You will eventually notice a doe-eyed, submissive expression. At this point, invite them to some ‘privileged’ one-to-one interaction with you (maybe helping you clean the zendo?). They will be more than responsive to your casually mentioned sexual suggestions.
Step 7) Bob’s your uncle!
This is why I am curiously conflicted regarding transmission:
“From my first phone contact to my last koan dokusan with him, his energy penetrated my being like a shock of electric current. I have my own internal Roshi-o-meter, and I felt the Roshi-o-meter register off the scale at our first meeting in Kyoto in 1995. I had met Suzuki Roshi, some 30 years earlier, and I have a deep relationship with my root teacher, Sojun Weitsman Roshi. Both Sojun Roshi and Suzuki Roshi still influence and guide me deeply. Fukushima Roshi just plain knocked my socks off from start to finish.”
That’s Grace, from the second of the two links anon 108 provided.
To me, Zen is the science and art of grace, and some people have taken it to a whole other level; what part transmission plays in that, I’m not sure. Have some of the people who have taken it to another level gracefully insinuated themselves where they did not belong?- they have.
If we take the opportunity we have here in the West to understand the science that has been a part of Buddhism from the first, then the attraction of those who have a special talent for the art of Zen falls into perspective; being a part of a lineage and a master of the art doesn’t necessarily speak to the needs of Western society.
I give Grace Schireson full marks on this:
‘When asked what was the most important development in Western Zen, he said: “The equality of women.” I suggested he had been a good student (of mine) on that front.’
But I would beg to differ with Keido Fukushima.
“To me, Zen is the science and art of grace…” – that’s a beautiful (and graceful) way of putting it, Mark.
To me, Zen is arm in arm, neither male or female.
http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=6,11317,0,0,1,0#.VLrN-IWl3Ak
Reading Claire Gesshin Greenwood reaction to her teachers brought up a subject that I have been thinking about for a while.
Given the choice between two good teachers, one of which has been practicing zen for most of their life or another who is much less experienced (but still has a good understanding of the truth) which would be the best teacher?
I feel that the lifetime “super” zen teacher would be far too easy to idolize. Also she would be less familiar with the issues that can occur in the early stages of practice.
There would be a huge gap in experience between teacher and student.
I personally like the idea of having a less experienced teacher who is still struggling with some of the issues as the student. I think it would be easier to see your teacher as just another person rather than some zen super-being.
Some of the problems that I see in other zen organizations could be related to having a teacher who is much more experienced than the students. This makes it easier for students to fall into the trap of thinking that anything the teacher does is good.
Cheers.
[This comment was blocked for moderation under the 2 links rule. Sorry if it gets duplicated]
What is wrong with me? Why have I so quickly reduced another person to a stereotype? Why can’t I tell this …
http://hardcorezen.info/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Grace-during-her-Mountain-Seat-ceremony1-300×168.jpg
….
… from this …
http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMjE4MTQ3ODc4MV5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwMjYzNTIwNA@@._V1_SX640_SY720_.jpg
(and does it make me some kind of a misogynist?)
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Oops, my links are broken. The first one was to the picture of Grace Shireson at the top of this page, the second one was a picture of Nurse Ratched.
Thanks, Shinchan.
I went looking for the photo of Grace’s mountain seat ceremony, because your link didn’t work. My admiration for Mrs. Schireson grows.
“Arm in arm, I spied Nagarjuna comin’ my way…”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9EKqQWPjyo
“I don’t see why I should even care..”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZgBhyU4IvQ
“What can I say about Grace…”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDk27Lm4lws
“You’re no rock and roll fun…”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCy1VIy8Hj0
When I look into my crystal ball, I don’t see anything happening with a central Zen accrediting body. Outside the people who join it, who will care about it? Anyone sanctioned will just leave and go on the same as before. Nothing they will be able to do about it. So are people going to ring up Zen Central before seeing a teacher? Not very likely.
“just leave and go on the same as before”- good luck!-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iflVnahOKbU
I don’t like zen groups, especially with masters/teachers that think they got enlightement.
Yet why bother with those that think they don’t?
The enlightenment is the you behind the you that is shining through the deluded self.
Enlightenment is just remembering what you are. Not discovery, simply remembering. 🙂
As to Brad’s original post here. . .
It seems that if dusty stuffy people who think they have authority in zen keep pushing that agenda, the mindfulness movement is going to get a boost, because nobody likes dusty stuffies.
If you “think” you’re enlightened, are you?
the universe looking at the universe
What is this “universe”?
the dragon howling in a withered tree
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1_tk1aPWRM
Fred, that sounds like attachment to vijñÄna.
yes i’m a dead void heretic
You had me at “i’m” !
no one could have you
sez who?
Just a sentiment I have been hearing echoes of in some of these comments…
It sounds like people think that koan/Rinzai/Sanyo-Kyodan’s central practice involves attaining some kind of experience. Unlike the Soto, who maintain that there is nothing to attain.
I just want to chime in and say: you are wrong. 🙂
If you think that when someone “passes a koan” that they have attained something, or leaves the dokusan room with something extra… Your take on their practice is wrong.
” Thus you should know that even after one has attained Wu (Satori) and feels safe and comfortable, he still cannot consider the work done until he has consulted a great teacher. ”
The Great Teacher has passed away, his greatness tarnished by his attachment to
the nerve endings in his penis. Now his legacy will be dismantled by the strivings
of the deluded.
Yes Fred. 🙂
I am well aware of the language of zen. It is a very skillfully and deliberatly constructed practice.
It tends to avoid the Soto trap of Buji zen sort of thinking…. But it has its own, different traps too.
Hi Shodo, I first studied zen in a Rinzai influenced, Sanbo Kyodan setting, and later in a Soto setting. My current opinion is that both schools of practice have things to recommend them, and each can learn from the other (although I’d now class myself as a Soto learner).
I wouldn’t say I’ve ever heard that passing a koan equals attaining something, but c’mon, you must admit that rinzai/sk are kinky about ‘getting’ kensho, and ‘stages of enlightenment’, and also about reverence for the teacher as someone who’s got ‘it’. The plot summary of Kapleau’s “Three Pillars…” is “Get kensho. Get Kensho. Get Kensho. Kensho or bust!” Of course rinzai teachers admit they are selling water by the river, etc., but the tradition does manifest an imperative of strenuous effort to get somewhere. That may be wonderful skillful means for teaching a certain type of energetic student… but it does foster reified ideas of enlightenment, and roshi-worship, if only temporarily and provisionally.
Shinchan Ohara said:
“…you must admit that rinzai/sk are kinky about ‘getting’ kensho, and ‘stages of enlightenment’… the tradition does manifest an imperative of strenuous effort to get somewhere.”
Yup, quite true.
And that is totally by design, I might add. 😉
“And that is totally by design, I might add…”
Yeah, it’s a great racket.
“Just sitting is already enlightenment” is all you can learn from a true kensho experience. The Soto crowd totally undersell… when they could have people paying dues and serving roshi with mind, body, and money for thirty years before they let them into that secret! 😉
In fact… I wonder at how many people here have read the definition of Buji-Zen and have broken into a cold sweat – being an accurate description of themselves.
Yeah Shodo everybody else is Buji, but not the Buddhism that I practice. The net
is full of that shit.
As I said, they have different traps… Buji is mostly a Soto hang up.
(To Shodo) Hey! I resemble that remark.
On the other hand, maybe you should read some Dogen. The Shobogenzo is in many ways a diatribe anti- quietism, and pro- total unremitting effort, with no goalpost of being ‘attained’. Buji Zen may just be a stupid stereotype, formed by those who are still attached to attainment?
Shinchan Ohara said:
“Buji Zen may just be a stupid stereotype, formed by those who are still attached to attainment?”
It’s the sickness of someone who thinks there is nothing to attain because they’ve always “had it”… so they don’t try. A totally Soto trap.
The Rinzai/SK trap is thinking there is something to attain “out there”…
You know, I don’t care whether or not Grace Schireson likes Brad Warner or not, and frankly I feel that the only reason he cares is because just like Grace, he wants to be someone special sitting in front of the class in his robes swishing a fly swish and saying profound stuff about just sitting still. That’s fine for them, let them play act at being Senseis or Roshis or Kumbayas or whatever the fuck is in their heads.*
The difference between the two is that I can say shit like that here and its no big deal, if I were on her blog I’d probably have been banned years ago.
*C’mon everybody, sing this together but change the words to “I Wanna Be Transmitted:” (I’ll be over here being sedated…)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x09XSa1X1eU
“If you think that when someone “passes a koan” that they have attained something, or leaves the dokusan room with something extra… Your take on their practice is wrong.”
Actually I don’t give a shit about this. Anyone else here give a shit?
I Wanna be Transmitted
Twenty, twenty, twenty four hours to go I wanna be transmitted
Nothin’ to become, no where to go, oh, I wanna be transmitted
Just get me to Mount Baldy put me on a plane
Hurry, hurry, hurry before I go insane
I can’t control my fingers, I can’t control my brain
Mr. Sasaki give me your big candy cane.
You sure seem to, Fred. 😉
the dragon’s howl in a withered tree
LoL…
I was just thinking we were overdue for some zenny sounding poetry. 😉
Fred, you are so easily rattled when it comes to koans. They aren’t that big of deal, they are just sort of fun for some people.
It seems like Soto people don’t approach them the same way as other traditions in that Soto people seem to just be only interested in the historical context, story reference, or teaching about Buddhist “logic” that can be found in some of them, sometimes. Of course, from a real koan experience perspective, they are missing it completely, which is cool. It seems that the Dogen notion of just sitting as enlightenment itself is simply Soto’s main koan, because the answer to both are just this, which is pretty funny. The mountains as mountains saying could easily be replaced with the word “sitting”.
Were you always so jumpy about koans? I was messing with you a bit about them a month or so ago, but that was because you were so jumpy about them. So were you like a koan dropout who is now bitter and wants the time back that you spent contemplating mu for ten years?
no, you are reading meaning into something
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXyW-oyc7-c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-iYPXQMCCw
Ah I like it, Fred! I am working away (and obviously procrastinating on a blog), and this music will work quite well for now.
By the way, I am just a smart ass, man. All in good fun. My fun 🙂
I am not a Soto man, so learning about how Soto people approach things is rather interesting to me.
Brad, do you read most of the comments when they drag on to 100+ posts? Well in case you do, keep up the good work. I like that you’re the black sheep of zen when the tradition seems to be suffocating in stuffy hierarchical nonsense that is downright embarrassing.
“when the tradition seems to be suffocating in stuffy hierarchical nonsense that is downright embarrassing.”
Janwillem van de Wetering wrote a great trilogy about his experiences with koans: A Glimpse of Nothingness, The Empty Mirror, and Afterzen.
The last one is subtitled “Experiences of a Zen Student Out On His Ear” …
I admit I once worked for a couple of years with the Mumonkan via (primarily) Zenkei Shibayama’s commentary trans. by Sumiko Kudo, &under the guidance of a Rinzai teacher, and got nothing out of it. Nothing. Get it?
Anyway, do consider van de Wetering’s musings, highly entertaining…
Wow! This thread has come back to life. Yay! intra-Zen Sectarianism! 🙂 … just when I thought I would be stuck amusing myself with my own uncharitable Schireson-baiting.
I went away and considered why Grace burst my balls so much. It’s partly just the mirror thing: one wise-ass manipulator sees another: our eyebrows are crocheted together. Partly, it’s that I’ve had bad experiences with power-crazed matriarchs in my work life, ladies who manifest sweetness and light until they feel that someone is challenging their position. They react by humiliating and shaming the culprit, in the knowledge that they can play the helpless grandmother role to the rest of the group if the victim complains. Grace Schireson may not be like that in real life – but her written words triggered the memory.
That said, there is an big objective factor behind my anger. It’s absurd and counter-productive when Western Zen teachers and students take themselves SO DANG SERIOUS! Reading blogs and comments about the whole Eido/Joshu/Genpo situation reveals one thing to me clear as day: the collective reality check of the Zen community bounced off a cliff long ago. For a practice that is supposed to favour stark truth, this is a lethal situation.
If a Yoga teacher, or a Tai Chi instructor, or a Personal Fitness Coach, (or a frickin’ Hairdresser for that matter) screws with some of his adult clients, nobody gives a flying duck. People have sex. A lot. In the professions just mentioned, nobody raises issues of Ethics, or asymmetric power dynamics, or psychological damage.
Sorry to burst your bubble, American Roshis, but you’re in the same industry as barbers and fitness coaches: leisure-time lifestyle enhancement. Don’t believe your own propaganda that says otherwise. Y’all ain’t ‘Clergy’ or ‘Mental Health Professionals’, y’all is Med-ih-tay-shun Teachas. The whole camp pantomime of gold-brocaded aprons and ponytails on sticks doesn’t change a thing.
There are exceptions: Kobutsu Malone is ‘Clergy’ when he’s consoling Death Row inmates; Grace, or Barry Magid may have been ‘Mental Health’ in their day jobs. But most of the rest of you just offer a narcissistic-supply service for introverted hipsters, and jaded baby-boomers – and maybe a cheap anxiety-reduction technique for the traumatised. People turn up at zen centers these days not to get religion, or cheap psychotherapy, but to learn to meditate, or maybe because they heard about the camp-as-christmas pantomime and want to check it out. One in ten of them (at best) will end up professing buddhism in an un-ironic way. So get over yourselves already!
Some grown-ups had sexual intercourse with some other grown-ups. Get over it!
Some grown-ups thought they were getting fucked by living buddhas. Get over it! (Heck, in my young days, I lied to girls in bars about some things. When they found out after we had sex that I wasn’t really an astronaut, they got over it quite quickly.)
Some people get turned on by role-play. If you’re kinky for sex with a (pretend) living buddha, knock yourself out! Everyone else: Get Over It!
Some women like to have sex with older, powerful men. This will always happen. Get over it! Some of them may like to get the man into trouble once the fling ends. That’s an occupational hazard for old lechers. Get over it!
Some students may have left zen after affairs with sensei. Get over it! When a sexual relationship ends, people look for a new scene. Get over it!
From what I know about the ‘scandals’ that were reported – nothing very serious occurred. Genpo was married, so his infidelity can be seen as ‘misuse of sexuality’; Joshu did some unsolicited groping in dokusan (ok, that’s assault, and a big breach of trust), but as I said above, he was a wrinkly geriatric – the gropees could have resisted easily, and got the law involved – they were above the age of consent/dis-consent; Eido, as far as I know, just found some willing sex partners.
Nobody got raped (I hope). No children or small furry animals were harmed. Get over it!
Yes, I know about the precepts. Yes I know that Zen teachers are supposed to represent an ideal condition of human life, and groping unsui’s should be off the menu. But society at large doesn’t think that way about Zen teachers or about sex. And surely the morals of a practice that preaches interdependent co-origination should have some relation to social mores? Reverend Venerable Shi-Fu Roshis of the World, and Crypto-Calvinist, scrupulous- asexual-vegan Zen bloggers of America: Get the heck over yourselves!
“Some grown-ups had sexual intercourse with some other grown-ups. Get over it!”
The issue is that sometimes really troubled people come to meditation teachers hoping that meditation is a fix for their problems. Seducing them only adds to their problems. This is not just theoretical, has happened. As a decent person, your first responsibility is to try to help the person who has come to you for help, or failing that, at least not to make their problem worse.