Now before I say what I want to say here, I want to point out that I specifically designed my Zen retreats to be the best possible retreats they could be. I didn’t even start running retreats of my own at all until I was able to run ones that wouldn’t be compromised into being inferior ones. So of course I think mine are the best. That doesn’t mean every other retreat is bad. It just means mine are the best. Here’s why.
We’re doing a Zen and Yoga Retreat April 24-26 at Mt. Baldy Zen Center. Now if you sign up for a “Zen and Yoga” or “Zen and Calligraphy” or “Zen and Skeeball” or “Zen and whatever” retreat at some places I’ve spent time at, what you’ll get will be a lot of yoga or calligraphy or skeeball and a small amount of (almost always optional) Zen. Meditation centers generally know that actual meditation is a tough sell and often minimize or very nearly eliminate actual sitting from the schedule. The idea of such retreats is to get you in the door with the hope that maybe 10% of those who sign up might come back some day.
On the other hand, some Zen places go to the opposite extreme. They expect even first-timers to sit for as much as ten hours a day and will, quite literally, punish you if you so much as scratch or sniffle. I know they like to tell you it’s not punishment, but let’s be real. You get hit with a big wooden stick when you break the most minor rules. Where I come from we call that punishment.
What we offer is a genuine Zen retreat with the yoga added to soften the impact of so much sitting. We offer three and a half hours of seated meditation on the longest of the three days along with one hour of yoga (split into two sessions) and two hours of lecture/discussion. Three meals are eaten in silence as a way of continuing the meditation during the meals. There is also a Zen style work period of 40 minutes, which is yet another opportunity to practice meditation with movement. During the sitting periods, I also offer personal consultations with all participants (dokusan).
This is the perfect amount of sitting for both beginners and long-time practitioners. It’s not too much for beginners to deal with and it’s not so little that people who’ve practiced for a while feel cheated. And if they do, we offer free time in the schedule when you can go to the zendo and sit some more if you want. I used to do that when I attended Gudo Nishijima’s retreats, which had a similar schedule. You can also skip yoga and lectures to sit if you feel so inclined.
Three and a half hours of staring at a wall can seem like a lot to someone who has never done zazen at all. In fact, it is a lot. That’s the idea. One of the most effective ways to do Zen practice is to do it longer than you imagine you can endure. If ten minutes is your limit, do fifteen. If you’re too angry or too stressed or your mind is racing too much for you to do 40 minutes, then do 45 minutes.
That last bit, the part of your practice in which you feel like you can’t possibly go on any longer, is the best. It’s like exercising. You have to push a little. You’re bothered by your overactive mind because you give in too quickly to whatever it demands of you. This is true for me and for everybody else too. When you learn in practice not to give in so easily, you train the mind to be still when it doesn’t get exactly what it imagine it wants. By not scratching every single itch that comes up and not shifting around each time you feel like it, you learn something incredibly valuable. You learn how to be fine with the things that come up even when you don’t really like them. And you also learn how to enjoy the things you like that much more because you can stay with what’s actually going on.
We’re also very liberal at our retreats. If you have to miss part of it, nobody’s going to bug you about it. If you’d rather go hike up the mountain while the rest of us are sitting, we’re not gonna tell you not to. We may wonder why you signed up for a Zen retreat instead of just driving up Mt. Baldy and hiking on your own, but that’s about it.
Retreats are a great way to deepen your practice. You can get into it in ways that you just can’t at home by yourself or at a weekly sitting where you just do one or two rounds. There really is no substitute.
Anyhow, that’s my two-cents. The link to sign up is below. See you there!
UPCOMING EVENTS
April 3, 2015 Pomona, CA Open Door 2 Yoga 6 pm 163 W 2nd St, Pomona, California 91766
April 24-26, 2015 Mt. Baldy, CA 3-DAY ZEN & YOGA RETREAT
May 16-17, 2015 Nashville, TN 2-DAY RETREAT AT NASHVILLE ZEN CENTER
July 8-12, 2015 Vancouver, BC Canada 5-DAY RETREAT at HOLLYHOCK RETREAT CENTER
August 14-16, 2015 Munich, Germany 3 DAY ZEN RETREAT
August 19, 2015 Munich, Germany LECTURE
August 24-29, 2015 Felsentor, Switzerland 5-DAY RETREAT AT STIFTUNG FELSENTOR
August 30-September 4, 2015 Holzkirchen, Germany 5-DAY RETREAT AT BENEDIKTUSHOF MONASTERY
September 10-13, 2015 Finland 4-DAY RETREAT
ONGOING EVENTS
Every Monday at 8pm I lead zazen at Silverlake Yoga Studio 2 located at 2810 Glendale Boulevard, Los Angeles, CA 90039. All are welcome!
Every Saturday at 9:30 am I lead zazen at the Veteran’s Memorial Complex located at 4117 Overland Blvd., Culver City, CA 90230. All are welcome!
Registration is now open for our 3-day Zen & Yoga Retreat at Mt. Baldy Zen Center April 24-26, 2015. CLICK HERE for more info!
Plenty more info is available on the Dogen Sangha Los Angeles website, dsla.info
* * *
Don’t retreat from making a donation to this blog!
Hello Brad
9:40am — 10:10am Zazen
10:10am — 10:30am Kinhin
10:30am — 11:00am Zazen
Will/would the same thing happen in Kinhin as in Zazen?
🙂
Kinhin is just zazen while walking.
i agree! okay i practice in another tradition but i went on a retreat that was very similar and i think this is a great schedule. i wasn’t sure about yoga and after 3 days i loved it, so much easier to sit when you do some yoga to get physically through the next session. i listened to a teacher talk about how we come from such busy structured lives that a more relaxed retreat is very good, maybe a traditional one to sit for 10 hours was a good way when most people worked more physically. he said it more eloquently of course. i just know i am not the only one to get to retreat and spend the first day or two recovering from what it takes to get there, i am now helping to manage some retreats but i wanted to go on a few first to make sure that the quality was high.
so everyone should go on Brad’s retreat,
http://youtu.be/VhArX1t7Vhs
The belief that whatever it is you do is the best makes you happy. It’s not exactly narcissism right? Your scrap-booking every photo, tape and scrap of writing from your past. A lot of people do that I guess. Yet sometimes I think.. Is this guy delusional or what? But it’s cool. I’m over that now..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aZsF7v0pNw
It sounds like a wonderful retreat. The monastery I lived at prides itself on never softening the schedule. I am a bit more flexible and feel there is room for different forms of retreats. While my favorite is the traditional 7 day sesshin I also have enjoyed more relaxed schedules. For me it works…..either is fine…..and I can’t speak for anyone else.
I do wish I could join you.
“The place where a dream is expounded in a dream is indeed the land and assembly of buddha-ancestors.”
I can’t help wondering if people with FCS (phantom child syndrome) have to pay double for the retreat.
Outstanding!! That is one of the best comments I have seen in a long time…
“One of the most effective ways to do Zen practice is to do it longer than you imagine you can endure. If ten minutes is your limit, do fifteen.”
One of the most effective ways to do Zen practice is TO NOT THINK ABOUT LONG, SHORT, ENDURING AND TIME.
One of the least effective ways to do Zen practice is to understand it solely as zazen – and then put a conscious effort into “prolonging”. The very thought of it will surely get you out of samadhi.
otaku00 wrote: “One of the most effective ways to do Zen practice is TO NOT THINK ABOUT LONG, SHORT, ENDURING AND TIME.”
And how do you make yourself not think something? How do you un-think something you’ve thought?
Have you never, perhaps when you first started sitting, thought, “I tried for 10 minutes the other day and it felt like ages! I’ll just try for 5 minutes today.” I know I did. But I slowly discovered that whatever made me bored, restless, or confused – whatever made me decide ‘enough! Time to get up’ – would very often pass if I resolved to stay sat just a little longer.
“And how do you make yourself not think something? ”
By thinking non-thinking.
Thanks, Fred! An imaginary friend now owes me £50.
In the spirit of posting something about the topic, I’ve been to the Mount Baldy retreat several times. Brad and his Dogen Sangha group do a good job, the food prepared by resident monks is fantastic and I think they are very much worth attending.
I have nothing to compare them to as theses are the only retreats I have attended. They are challenging enough for me, I never feel like I am attending a military boot camp designed to crush my ego.
Go to one if you admire Brad’s writing…
Cheers.
Maybe someday I’ll just sit 30 minutes in the morning. Since I don’t hold myself to sitting any particular length of time, it amazes me that I still tend toward 40 minutes. I’m wondering when the ox is going to hit the bridge, at about 30. If I get to 50, it’s an exceptional day.
The Dogen Sangha retreat schedule sounds like a great opportunity, wish I could be there.
The wind is sailing, anybody have a schedule?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP8DDnXNK5g
Seeing the lull in the hijinx hereabouts, since the topic is retreats, and since it’s not likely to take away business from Brad, I want to plug Dharma Drum Retreat Center. Located just south of the Catskill Mountains in the beautiful Hudson Valley of New York. It was developed by Ven. Sheng Yen specifically to be a Chan outreach to Westerners.
http://dharmadrumretreat.org/calendar.php
I’ve heard comments from some people who have been to other places, Zen, Vajrayana, Insight, and so forth, that they were impressed at how seriously the teachers and staff at the Center took practice. The Silence, for example, is strictly observed.
Two core methods are taught: Silent Illumination and Huatou, as well as several auxilliary practices. A variety of other programs are scheduled as well, like “Photo Mind,” a workshop of Chan and photography.
If you live in the Northeast and are looking for a traditional retreat guided by the spirit of one of the foremost Buddhist teachers of this era, DDRC is one of the best deals I know of.
Anybody else have any reccommendations?
I agree with you regarding Dharma Drum. I was there about ten years ago before it really took off. The buildings were amazing and the retreats intense. I had a bit of a problem adjusting to the culture, which was my hang up not theirs. It was strange how the women and men were separated but I got used to that. Overall, I totally agree with you.
Mt. Baldy Zen Center? Isn’t that where Joshu Sasaki used to be the abbot? I heard that some bad things happened up there. Be careful.
Mt Baldy Zen Center, says Leonard, “I thought it was revenge for WWII” …
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-BIp7yeJ94
Yup, I’ve been to a couple of them there banzai, kamikaze, bridge over the river kwai, beatings for breathing, dropping off knees and buttocks type sesshins. Brad’s sounds a lot more like the middle way to me: best wishes to all involved.
http://www.truby.com/xzq/joshu.jpg
“…I was drawn to mindfulness because it could be extracted from the cultural milieu and the religious matrix of Buddhism and presented as a fully secular practice…”- Shinzen Young (3 Things Shinzen got from Joshu Sasaki Roshi).
“Yes, there’s no self; then there’s full self, and those are both no-self experiences”- something Shinzen got from Sasaki. “…He disabused me of my notion of preferring no-self to unfixated self.”
Billing himself as a teacher of vipassana meditation, I see from his blog.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1r3yYQwnt-4
ok, grievous fault, two links- I’ll post again with one, apologies for the dupe.
“…I was drawn to mindfulness because it could be extracted from the cultural milieu and the religious matrix of Buddhism and presented as a fully secular practice…”- Shinzen Young (3 Things Shinzen got from Joshu Sasaki Roshi).
“Yes, there’s no self; then there’s full self, and those are both no-self experiences”- something Shinzen got from Sasaki. “…He disabused me of my notion of preferring no-self to unfixated self.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1r3yYQwnt-4
Billing himself as a teacher of vipassana meditation, I see from his blog.
That would be the theme of Spirit Rock as well- mindfulness as secular practice.
You guys are trying to trick me- Shinzen, Kapleau, Kornfield, Goldstein, Kabat-Zinn. There’s no mindfulness without meditative trance; there’s no meditative trance without mindfulness. Meditative trance is the truly religious aspect of Gautama’s teaching, to me. Leave it off, no real mindfulness practice.
IMNSHO.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2ymDONLxck
There’s no mindfulness without meditative trance; there’s no meditative trance without mindfulness.
————————————————————————————————
Really?
Would your definition of “trance” include something like “exercising a sufficient amount of concentration such that thoughts, feelings and sensations are so completely experienced that their arisings and departures from and to The Void are easily noted from moment to moment”?
And that also constitutes “the truly religious aspect of Gautama’s teaching” to you?
McMindfulness aside, methinks there may be an unfair blanket assumption that the purveyance of “secular” mindfulness by various secular-mindfulness med teachers is inherently joyless or something. That is so unfair!
Either that or I have absolutely no understanding of what it means to be truly religious.
Food for thought, but mostly poking you in the ribs, Mark.
‘Would your definition of “trance” include something like “exercising a sufficient amount of concentration such that thoughts, feelings and sensations are so completely experienced that their arisings and departures from and to The Void are easily noted from moment to moment”?’
er… no?
‘And that also constitutes “the truly religious aspect of Gautama’s teaching” to you?’
er… no?
‘there may be an unfair blanket assumption that the purveyance of “secular” mindfulness by various secular-mindfulness med teachers is inherently joyless or something. That is so unfair!’
ok, I take your point. Meditative trance is a naturally occurring phenomena, as is the mindfulness associated with the occurrence, so even if Shinzen is thinking some folks are secularizing mindfulness, sterilizing the voodoo-hoodoo of meditative trance out of it, they’re not. There will be trance, there will be joy.
Seems like a lot of what Gautama had to say comes down to an openness to consciousness from sources other than the mind. Opening the hand of thought is something along those lines. Science tells us that the muscles and ligaments are generating consciousness– an openness to proprioception I find most difficult, yet the snowflake falls right here.
Sitting brings me to my senses out of necessity in the movement of breath.
Gautama’s own practice of mindfulness was known to Dogen’s teacher, Rujing. He pointed out that comprehending the long and short of inhaling and exhaling, the second of the 16 components of Gautama’s mindfulness, already depends on the induction of trance, when he said that breath comes from nowhere into the tan-t’ien and goes out of the tan-t’ien to nowhere and therefore has no length to comprehend; that is, he used a trance phenomena, the tan-t’ien, to explain another trance phenomena, the ability to comprehend the long and short of inhaling and exhaling.
The induction of trance is by “making self surrender the object of thought”, so that one lays hold of concentration, lays hold of single-pointed snowflakiness of mind– and making self-surrender the object of thought is a setting up of mindfulness.
Zazen sits zazen. You can’t get there from here. What are we talking about.
How did Kapleau get in there! Oh, yeah, more tricks-
oh, ok, you’re right, it doesn’t really matter; Roger’s got it.
What about trancitative meds?
Be still, my beating heart…
So far, it seems like no one needs convincing that Brad’s retreat schedule is a jolly good idea.
The few 3-day retreats organised by M Luetchford (and latterly another) that I attended in the UK followed a similar schedule. I had a good time – although there was always one period of zazen I didn’t want to sit, so I didn’t. No questions other than ‘Are you alright?’ were asked. The one time I sat by myself during ‘free time’ no one noticed, dammit. I got enlightened at least once.
Why’s it gone so quiet? Are we being moderate or being moderated…some of us?
Trance is the state of the brain when it believes that reality is what it thinks.
Mostly a brain thinks what it has been taught to think. 12 to 16 years of education, so that we’re all in the same trance.
Have you guys heard of Deepak Chopra?
http://www.cnbc.com/id/102545102
“Why’s it gone so quiet? Are we being moderate or being moderated…some of us?”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKu7TYWNxqA
“He noted that “things change by the minute” on Wall Street, which can cause considerable stress”
hmmm, is meditation overall more ethical than the traditional Wall St. stress reduction technique?
http://th07.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2012/346/c/6/wall_street_crash_of_1929_by_technicallyderped-d5nuwkl.jpg
that’s a response to the Fredlette’s Deepak link ^^^^
It’s the opposite. The purer Brad’s intent when posting, the less we trolls have to feed on.
“Have you guys heard of Deepak Chopra?”
Is this not trolling?
Well we can try, but it just doesn’t stick as well!
I for one can only post nice stuff now. For example, I can comment: Hey, nice hairdo there today, Mr. Foote!
But I can’t comment: Fred is a _______.
See, not nice stuff is replaced by underscores. Pretty ____+___+____ !
Baaaaaa
____ off, ______+_______.
____off,_____+____
Wax off, Wax on?
Cheers.
Wax this, mother ____ers
Baaaaa off, baaaa + baaaaa.
This = _____+______.
Baaaaa-ba
_____.
Amidst the Foaming Breakers Go On Honeymoon the Missus and Fuxi
The wind is sailing, the ocean is free
The sea runs even under the keel
Walking along, I sail the sea
The empty hand grasps the till
(Mommy, why is he standing on his head?)
Who needs meditation (or coffee)! We just need a little juice-goose:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoEu2mEdLjw
Pointing at the Moon
The empty hand grabs a troll
Foaming breakers of endless poo
Into the wind they take a pee
A puddle beneath their shoes.
I go on one-day retreats now and then. Usually this means doing 6 hours of 30min sitting/10min walking. First time I tried this kind of retreat, it seemed like an eternity. But more recently these retreats seem very short. I think it has to do with learning how to sit very still.
The “best” sitting appears to be when I just let go of every kind of aspiration, and just let my body and mind sit. This can be surprisingly easy to do, so long as I’m not trying to do it.
I also go to a lot of 3-day retreats. We usually do 2 or 2-and-a-half hour sittings (with 10 minute walking periods), with breaks in between for work period, lunch, afternoon break, and dinner. Those retreats can be challenging.
Mark wrote: Amidst the Foaming Breakers Go On Honeymoon the Missus and Fuxi”
Nice title. Am I missing something again?
A poem by Fuxi, who was a Buddhist contemporary of Bodhidharma in China (therefore not of the lineage of Zen):
The empty hand grasps the hoe handle
Walking along, I ride the ox
The ox crosses the wooden bridge
The bridge is flowing, the water is still
(poem by Fuxi, trans. Andy Ferguson “Zen’s Chinese Heritage”)
From the “An Honest Liar” episode of Brad’s Place:
“…we all must look forward to tomorrow and looking forward to tomorrow is just going from eyes closed to eyes open. Eyes open is looking toward tomorrow and when the eyes are open there’s a new wife and a new husband. They have to go on another honeymoon.”
(Joshu Sasaki, from here)
In the last episode of Brad’s Happening:
‘“Little things please little minds / Small minds are easily amused” — a proverb
Fuxi Meets the Missus, Goes on Vacation Amidst the Foaming Breakers
The empty hand grasps the till
Walking along, I sail the sea
The sea runs even under the keel
The wind is sailing, the ocean is free’
(yers truly)
Transmission of consciousness through consciousness generated by sense, including but not limited to consciousness generated by mind, is trance; trance is transmission.
“Just make the transmission continue without a break from source to source, and then you will be a joyously alive person on the road of eternal life.”
(“Zen Letters”, trans. by Cleary and Cleary, pg 92, ©1994 by J. C. Cleary and Thomas Cleary)
Brad wrote: Three meals are eaten in silence as a way of continuing the meditation during the meals.
Dogen Sangha UK retreats were never silent. ‘Not much talking – you don’t have to talk’ was the rule. This included mealtimes: generally silent, but no one was pounced on for cracking a joke or asking for gluten-free cereal. At a couple of retreats the kitchen area was formally designated The ‘if you must discuss free will, cause and effect and the momentary universe, do it there, away from people who prefer to be quiet’ Area.
Mike never offered formal dokusan. Of course he was around if you wanted to chat to him, but people rarely did. He once told us that made him feel lonely.
During a lift back to Bristol from the last retreat I went to, I told Mike I quite fancied a silent retreat: “Why don’t we do that? “But you like to talk so much,” he replied. I said, “Yeah. But I might like it more if I wasn’t allowed to.” I wonder.
– and for those that fancied it (most people did) there was Quigong for 30/40 minutes in the morning, before the first zazen sitting.
Actor Jason Beghe talks about going on retreat.
He was featured prominently in the Going Clear film that was just released on HBO.
“Mark wrote: Amidst the Foaming Breakers Go On Honeymoon the Missus and Fuxi”
Nice title. Am I missing something again?”
Fuxi liked his sex rough, tumbling in the sandy wash of the void with Missus Duality
Just be sure to burn your cloths after attending the Mt. Baldy retreat, they’ve got a bed bug infestation.
That would be my bad. Sorry about that…
Cheers.
I ain’t wearing no clothes there. Your bad.
“I ain’t wearing no clothes there.”
This retreat just got a whole lot nastier…hide the women and children.
Cheers.
The ‘retreat’ is being lead by a punk rocker. They’ll be need deep in liquor, vomit, and ___ by the first midmorning.
* knee
By day three y’all gonna be like, “this place about to blow… http://www.vevo.com/watch/kesha/blow/USRV81100015
It’s up here, Andy.
“Transmission of consciousness through consciousness generated by sense, including but not limited to consciousness generated by mind, is trance; trance is transmission.”
Make sure your transmission juice is topped up, because you don’t want to be slippin no gears like them meditating on the unlovely guys.
Oh oh oh oh oh.
out on the road late at night, it’s easy to lose sight
of what we feel, what we really feel
hang on, hang on, here we go
Going clear in the Buddha trance
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRsLCDgXL0k
Thanks for the notes Mark. The reason I asked was because your title pastiched my ‘Strawman’ titles I indulged in a year ago, made use of my ‘foaming breakers of the void’ & referred to a ‘missus’ (I sometimes refer to my wife). So it seemed possible that your words were in some way relating to me or, at a push, intended for me. ?
Anon 108 wrote:
“During a lift back to Bristol from the last retreat I went to, I told Mike I quite fancied a silent retreat: “Why don’t we do that? “But you like to talk so much,” he replied. I said, “Yeah. But I might like it more if I wasn’t allowed to.” I wonder.”
That DOES sound like Mike… 🙂
Andy said:
” ‘Strawman’ titles I indulged in a year ago, made use of my ‘foaming breakers of the void’”
I can’t speak for Mark, but I like the imagery of ‘foaming breakers of the void’. It goes well with ‘the empty hand holds the hoe handle’.
108 said, ” there was Quigong for 30/40 minutes in the morning, before the first zazen sitting.”
Now That sounds like the best retreat! Sorry Brad.
For all the talk about trance on this blog.. Well Mark and Fred’s..
Has Brad ever uttered the word trance in any of his writings? I can’t remember it.
(thanks for the straight line, Harlan-) Brad is constantly trying to induce trance in his readers, sucking them into his premise, then cleverly working the terminology of the post into a hypnotic suggestion at the close.
Andy, no, wasn’t such- “the foaming breakers of the sky on level ground” I believe is a quote from the Blue Cliff Record, though I can’t quote chapter and verse just now. Though I was reflecting last night on the poetry you used to bring to the thread, on those occasions where you had lost your mind, through one means or another. I don’t mean to encourage anyone losing their mind, especially through one means or another, but wild Andy was a great read, and if it wouldn’t destroy him too much could wild Andy please write a novel?
Walking along this morning, “transmission of consciousness through consciousness generated by sense, including but not limited to consciousness generated by mind, is trance; trance is transmission” was conducive to mindfulness of the vessel parts between the sea and wind, what a motion!
“For all the talk about trance on this blog.. Well Mark and Fred’s..
Has Brad ever uttered the word trance in any of his writings? I can’t remember it.”
Yes he has.
Brad Warner:
“Zazen isn’t about blissing out or going into an alpha brain-wave trance. It’s about facing who and what you really are, every single goddamn moment”
” Brad is constantly trying to induce trance in his readers, sucking them into his premise, then cleverly working the terminology of the post into a hypnotic suggestion at the close.”
Gee Mark, Brad doesn’t sound very ethical implanting these post hypnotic posts into our subconscious while we’re reading his witticisms. It sounds a little like date rape.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NVQBenl_Fs
“Writers Walter Becker and Donald Fagen have stated that the lyrics were loosely inspired by the exploits of the infamous 1960s San Francisco-based LSD chemist Owsley Stanley[3] – although it conflates the core story with numerous other images of the Sixties”
“Who and what you really are” in duality is a fabricated set of selves operating in the vacuum of a trance.
Facing who you are every single goddamn moment is like watching a soap opera transitioning through the trance.
Trance is the source of energy for maintaining the self in duality.
Without the mesmerizing conditioning of daily life, the artifice of I falls away.
Someone said that during zazen random thoughts continue to occur, the natural activity of the mind and are not welcome or unwelcome. If you tried to stop these random thoughts you would fall into a trance state, which is not what zazen is about.
It comes down to how you define the word trance. Trance is a word not easily defined by them.
In the last thread I said I’d recently sat with my eyes closed. I didn’t fall asleep and it felt nice.
Then Alan Sailer said: “Lotus position valium is a very attractive zen fantasy, it’s actually one of my favorites.”
‘Lotus position valium’ might be a fair enough description of my shut-eyed just-sitting. Not a description I’d be proud to adopt.
And now Harlan says: ” […] a trance state […] is not what zazen is about.”
My understanding of the word ‘trance’ doesn’t fit with what I’ve been taught about zazen, either – about what it’s for.
“Trance 1. a half-conscious state characterized by an absence of response to external stimuli […] ” (google)
More bored than bothered,
Malcolm
“If you tried to stop these random thoughts you would fall into a trance state, which is not what zazen is about.”
you = trance
random thoughts = trance
stopping random thoughts = another thought = trance
Harlan, you could look at this man’s definition of trance: Milton Erickson
or this man’s:
“This, Aggivessana, occurred to me: ‘I know that while my father, the Sakyan, was ploughing and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, aloof from pleasures of the senses, aloof from unskilled states of mind, entering on the first meditation, which is accompanied by initial thought and discursive thought, is born of aloofness, and is rapturous and joyful, and while abiding therein, I thought: “Now could this be a way to awakening?”‘ Then, following on my mindfulness, Aggivessana, there was the consciousness: This is itself the Way to awakening. This occurred to me, Aggivessana: ‘Now, am I afraid of that happiness which is happiness apart from the sense-pleasures, apart from unskilled states of mind?’ This occurred to me, Aggivessana: ‘I am not afraid of that happiness which is happiness apart from sense-pleasures, apart from unskilled states of mind.’”
(MN I 246-247, Pali Text Society MN I pg 301).
So you can say that trance isn’t a part of the teachings of Gautama the Buddha, if you want to deny the Way as he taught the Way.
You can say that trance isn’t a part of Zen, if you ignore the use by the Chinese masters of the koans and the utility of transderivational search in the induction of trance. If you haven’t read the first part of my write on Fuxi’s poem, I go into it there.
Tell me what you think: when Gautama set up mindfulness and entered any of the meditative states, as he taught in numerous lectures in the Pali Canon, was he lost in the ghost cave? Could he have been described as in “a half-conscious state characterized by an absence of response to external stimuli”?
🙂 🙂 😀 :o) :] :3 :c) :> =] 8) =) :} :^) :ã£) Smiley or happy face.[4][5][6]
😀 8-D 8D x-D xD X-D XD =-D =D =-3 =3 B^D Laughing,[4] big grin,[5][6] laugh with glasses[7]
:-)) Very happy or double chin[7]
>:[ 🙁 🙁 :-c :c :-< :ã£C ::( Angry[7]
:’-( :'( Crying[8]
:’-) :’) Tears of happiness[8]
D::O :-O :O 😮 😮 8-0 O_O o-o O_o o_O o_o O-O Surprise,[3] shock,[4][10] yawn[11]
:* :^* ( ‘}{‘ ) Kiss, couple kissing[7]
😉 😉 *-) *) ;-] ;] ;D ;^) :-, Wink,[4][5][6] smirk[10][11]
>:P 😛 😛 X-P x-p xp XP :-p :p =p :-Þ :Þ :þ :-þ :-b :b d: Tongue sticking out, cheeky/playful,[4] blowing a raspberry
>:\ >:/ :-/ :-. :/ :\ =/ =\ :L =L :S >.:) >;) >:-) Evil[5]
}:-) }:) 3:-) 3:) Devilish[8]
o/\o ^5 >_>^ ^<_< High five[11]
|;-) |-O Cool,[8] bored/yawning[10]
:-J Tongue-in-cheek[12]
:-& :& Tongue-tied[8]
#-) Partied all night[8]
%-) %) Drunk,[8] confused
:-###.. :###.. Being sick[8]
<:-| Dumb, dunce-like[10]
ಠ_ಠLook of disapproval[13] The Unicode character ಠis from the Kannada alphabet and can be called differently in HTML notation: ಠ and ಠ (for Unicode)
> Fish, something’s fishy,[10] Christian fish[7]
\o/ Cheer “Yay, yay.”[7]
*/* Cheerleader[7]
@}-;-‘— @>–>– Rose[4][10]
~(_8^(I) Homer Simpson[10]
5:-) ~:-\ Elvis Presley[10][11]
//0-0\\ John Lennon[10]
*<|:-) Santa Claus[14]
=:o] Bill Clinton[14]
,:-) 7:^] Ronald Reagan[14]
<3 __ Troubled[16][17]
(‘;’) Baby[16]
(^^ゞ　(^_^;)　(-_-;)　(~_~;)　(・。・;)　(・_・;)　(・・;)　^^;　^_^; (#^.^#) (^ ^;) Nervous, embarrassed,[16] troubled, shy,[17] sweat drop[7]
.。o○　○o。. Bubbles[16]
) (゜レ゜) Confused[16]
(o|o) Ultraman [16]
[16]
^_^ (ã‚œoã‚œ) (^_^)/ (^O^)ï¼ (^o^)ï¼ (^^)/ (≧∇≦)/ (/◕ヮ◕)/ (^o^)丿 ∩( ・ω・)∩ ( ・ω・) ^ω^ Joyful[16][17][18]
(__)　_(._.)_　_(_^_)_　　　m(__)m m(_ _)m Kowtow as a sign of respect, or dogeza for apology[16][17]
(゜゜)～ Tadpole[16]
( ^^) _U~~　( ^^) _旦~~ Cup of tea[16]
☆彡 ☆ミ Shooting star[16]
ï¼¼(ã‚œãƒï¼¼)ココãƒãƒ‰ã‚³? (ï¼ãƒã‚œ)ï¼ã‚¢ã‚¿ã‚·ãƒãƒ€ã‚¢ãƒ¬? “Where am I?”, “Who am I?”[16]
>゜)))彡 (Q )) ><ヨヨ (゜))<゜))))彡 ゜))彡 << =゜)～～～　 Snake[16]
～゜・_・゜～　 Bat[16]
(=^・^=)　(=^・・^=)　=^_^= Cat[16][18]
(..) (._.) Looking down[16]
^m^ [16]
(・・? (?_?) Confusion[16]
>^_^< ^/^ （*^_^*） §^。^§ (^<^) (^.^) (^ム^) (^・^) (^。^) (^_^.) (^_^) (^^) (^J^)
(*^。^*) ^_^ (#^.^#) （＾ï¼ï¼¾ï¼‰ Normal laugh[16]
(^^)/~~~ (^_^)/~ (;_;)/~~~ (^.^)/~~~ ($・・)/~~~ (@^^)/~~~ (T_T)/~~~ (ToT)/~~~ Waving[16]
â—～* Bomb[16]
(V)oï¿¥o(V) Alien Baltan[16]
ï¼¼(~o~)ï¼ ï¼¼(^o^)ï¼ ï¼¼(-o-)ï¼ ãƒ½(^。^)ノ ヽ(^o^)丿 (*^0^*) Excited[16]
(*_*) (*_*; (+_+) (@_@) (@_@。 (ï¼ _ï¼ ;)　＼(â—Žoâ—Ž)ï¼ï¼ Amazed[16]
(-_-)/~~~ピシー!ピシー! [16]
!(^^)! [16]
(*^^)v (^^)v (^_^)v (＾▽＾) （・∀・） （　´âˆ€ï½€ï¼‰ （⌒▽⌒） （＾ｖ＾） （’-’*) Laughing, cheerful[16][17]
(~o~) (~_~) [16]
(^^ã‚ž [16]
(p_-) [16]
((d[-_-]b)) Headphones/listening to drum and bass music.[16]
(-"-)　(ーー゛)　(^_^メ)　(-_-メ)　(ï½€´ï¼‰ã€€(~_~メ)　(ï¼ï¼ã€†)　(・ã¸ãƒ»)　　 (ーー;) Worried[16][17]
(^0_0^) Eyeglasses[16]
( ..)φメモメモ φ(..)メモメモ Note[16]
😛 :-O |:3ミ :-> 8-< 🙂 :-< 🙁 🙁 🙂 😐 😐 [16]
（â—ï¼¾oï¼¾â—） （＾ｖ＾） （＾ｕ＾） （＾◇＾） ( ^)o(^ ) (^O^) (^o^) (^â—‹^) )^o^( (*^â–½^*) (✿◠”¿â— ) Happy[16][17]
（￣ー￣） Grinning[17]
（￣□￣；）°o° °O° :O o_O o_0 o.O (o.o) Surprised[3][17]
（*´â–½ï½€*） (*°âˆ€°)=3 Infatuation[17]
（　ﾟ Дﾟ） （゜◇゜） Shocked, surprised[17]
(*ï¿£mï¿£) Dissatisfied[17]
ヽ（´ãƒ¼ï½€ï¼‰â”Œã€€¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Mellow, shrug[17]
(´ï½¥Ï‰ï½¥`) (‘A`) Snubbed or deflated[17]
(*^3^)/~☆ Blowing a kiss[19]
…..φ(・∀・＊) Studying is good[19]
ã‚ã‚¿â”â”â”(゜∀゜)â”â”â”!!!!! "It's here", Kitaa!, a general expression of excitement that something has appeared or happened.[17]
＿|￣|○ STO OTZ OTL orz Despair. The "O" or "o" represents one's head on the ground, "T" or "r" forms the torso and "S" or "Z" forms the legs.[17]
(╯°â–¡°ï¼‰â•¯ï¸µ â”»â”â”» ┬──┬ ¯\_(ツ) â”»â”â”» ︵ヽ(`Д´)ﾉ︵ â”»â”â”» ┬─┬ノ( º _ ºãƒŽ) (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻â”â”»
Oooh… interesting!
My first thought after reading the last few comments was to agree fully with Brad as quoted by Fred: “Zazen isn’t … trance. It’s about facing who and what you really are…”
My second thought: yes, I still agree, but it’s not quite that simple.
“Who you really are” doesn’t depend on which notes of the greek alphabet your brainwaves are humming. And they can hum any of them, on or off the cushion. Trance (I’m led to believe by science) is a feature of the human mind – natural, healthy, inevitable. It will affect sages and sentient beings equally. But my more-or-less-informed opinion is that part of the rationale of Zen’s techniques is to let students become aware of their trance states, and transcend them (in a way).
Philip Kapleau said that, “Zen makes you impervious to all forms of mind control”. I believe he was right. This comment may well get tl;dr as I try to explain why.
I’ve been the subject of externally induced trance a couple of times – in both cases I knew what was going on, but made a decision on some level to allow the induction, out of curiosity. The first time, a gypsy lady on the street in Granada, Spain, got me to part with 40 euros for a single sprig of rosemary. I’d been warned… but I wanted to see how it was done. It turned out to be a simple Ericksonian handshake induction, while staring me in the eye and talking rapidly. Dunno if she’d heard of Milton E., or if the gypsies discovered it independently. Next trance – I was seeing a therapist who put me into a regressed state by mostly verbal means: again I new I was getting mesmerised, but thought it could be beneficial. If I hadn’t basically trusted either of those people, or if I’d been aroused in fear or anger already, the trance wouldn’t have happened.
Both of those trance induction techniques put the subject in the dependent mental position of an baby who’s being cooed at while sucking tit: a state many adults crave. The only other possible way of inducing trance in another person puts the subject in the headspace of a deer getting bit by a tiger. In any of these trances, parasympathetic nervous activity overwhelms sympathetic activity, and volitional motor behaviour based on the normal conscious sense of self is compromised. Which is why some daft zennists mistake this kind of dissociative trance/samadhi for enlightenment.
Imagine my surprise (knowing all of the above) when a Zen teacher tried to pull a blatant, poorly executed, trance induction stunt on me. At the time I was really pissed – I decided the teacher was a charlatan and moved on. I figured he was just a cult leader, entrancing the gullible into surrender to his oriental woo woo. Now I’m not so sure. Maybe he was just checking where I was at?
If you look at the old koans, the winner is always the guy who refuses to do the ‘Ericksonian transderivational search’: the guy you can’t hypnotise. For example, Nansen kills the cat because the monks are caught in discursive thought of right and wrong and karma, and too entranced to rescue the cat. Joshu can’t be hypnotised: he puts a shoe on his head and walks out. If he’d been there, the cat would’ve been spared.
It’s not that trance is good. It’s not that trance is bad. Discursive thought is OK too. Speculations on theoretical Buddhism are fine. Trance and discursive thought (or their absence) are irrelevant to Zen. I’m suggesting that zazen is a state where embodied, conscious, vigorous action can’t be compromised by trance – this vigorous action is the zazen that gets up and walks around.
… and I don’t much disagree with Mr Foote’s comments above. We appear to be working with slightly different definitions of ‘trance’ is all.
And thanks for the smileys Fred Jr. 🙂
Mark wrote: “Andy, no, wasn’t such- “the foaming breakers of the sky on level ground” I believe is a quote from the Blue Cliff Record”
Thanks for the citation. Looks like Lady Serenditous Q Felicipity was tousling the positron again. My advocate suggests I plead the dreadlocks of coincidence for my concupiscent turk. I had thought my own foaming breakers arrived freshly packaged, though it could be that she’d had her hand cupped, thrice, behind the pillow while Madame Mumonkey wet nursed me.
If memory is serving sound tracks, a gale was buffeting our exposed home and rumbling the masonry when that one rolled up. But even then the window was plumbing its own true cliff-face.
‘Wild Andy’? I like that! I might keep it. But now I’ve said that, there’s a small chance of a Fight Club Wild Andy Jr. monicker appearing ’round these parts. As the old saying goes: “A Zafu always has its Zucchinipants.”
You’re proper nuts, mate. Please do write a book.
True dat.
Mark said, “So you can say that trance isn’t a part of the teachings of Gautama the Buddha, if you want to deny the Way as he taught the Way.”
Ok Mark, So how do you reconcile your statement with Brad’s quote provided to us by Fred? “Zazen isn’t about blissing out or going into an alpha brain-wave trance.”
Unless you are saying trance but meaning something else it doesn’t seem like you and Brad are on the same page..
Thanks, Mark. While I await your further reply to Harlan, I’m gonna have another go at http://www.zenmudra.com/zenmudra-fuxi.html
Fred Jr – I wasn’t so taken with the smilies. Loving your early work, though.
Thanks, Shinchan.
2) + – 0
Zazen is not a trance.
Zazen is not self-hypnosis.
Zazen is not a withdrawal of the senses.
Zazen is waking up.
The trance is the motion.
This is the motion of the new revolution.
(RIP Wayne Static.)
Some sutras are bullshit. If those bullshit sutras accurately record what Buddha taught, then he was wrong about those things. That does not invalidate the things in Zen (and other schools of Buddhism) that are true.
“Live in the world like an ant. The world contains a mixture of truth and untruth, sugar and sand. Be an ant and take the sugar.” – Sri Ramakrishna
“In any of these trances, parasympathetic nervous activity overwhelms sympathetic activity, and volitional motor behaviour based on the normal conscious sense of self is compromised. Which is why some daft zennists mistake this kind of dissociative trance/samadhi for enlightenment.”
Then it becomes a game, the kind An3drew plays – I’m enlightened and you are not.
I’m enlightened, but everybody else is in a dissociative trance.