On Friday my friend Bryan Clark told me about a film called An Honest Liar and I took him up on his invitation to go see it. I’m glad I did. It’s a really good film.
It’s a documentary about the Amazing Randi. James Randi is a Canadian magician who made a cause of exposing other magicians who, rather than being honest about their use of tricks and sleight of hand, presented themselves as psychics and faith healers. Randi was angered by how these people used the same sorts of tricks he entertained audiences with to lie to their followers and swindle them out of their money.
In the Seventies, James Randi famously exposed the fakery of spoon-bending psychic Uri Geller and phony faith-healer Rev. Peter Popoff. Yet, even after being exposed as fakes, both Geller and Popoff prospered rather than faded away.
James Randi is a big fan of hard-line Skeptics (with a capital S) like Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris. Neither appear in the film, but after the screening I saw at the Nuart Theater, co-director Tyler Maesom did a Q&A in which he mentioned this. I think he said they interviewed Dawkins for the movie but didn’t use it in the final cut. Maesom also mentioned that he’d gotten interested in the Amazing Randi because he was raised a Mormon and had a lot of anger around finding out he’d been lied to by the Church.
This got me thinking of another documentary I saw at the Nuart Theater, New York Doll. This film tells the story of Arthur “Killer” Kane, bass player for the New York Dolls. It’s also the subject of one of Robyn Hitchcock’s best songs, NY Doll. In a nutshell, after the New York Dolls’ short and explosive career came to an end, Arthur Kane found himself adrift and broke in Los Angeles, doing lots of drugs and attempting suicide by jumping out his kitchen window.
Then one day, Kane happened to walk into the big Mormon Temple on Santa Monica Boulevard. The Mormons took him in, got him off drugs, gave him a sense of purpose and even helped him get the Dolls back together for one last show with the original members. Then just 22 days after that show, Kane died of leukemia at age 55. He’d had the disease for a long time and it was the prospect of the reunion show that kept his spirits up enough to keep on going.
I started to wonder; Would Arthur Kane have been better off if, instead of the lying Mormons, he’d run into the truth-telling, falsehood-debunking followers of Richard Dawkins instead?
We know the answer. Dawkins and his friends could have offered Kane plenty of hard truths but no comfort. Kane wouldn’t have made it to that Dolls reunion and his final years would have been much sadder than they were.
Sure, all that stuff in the Book of Mormon about Joseph Smith finding golden tablets that mysteriously disappeared before anyone else got a look at them and the rest of it is bullshit. The way they flip-flopped on the issue of whether black people could go to Heaven and their intolerant stance on homosexuality is reprehensible. Yet in spite of this, they are able to do their members a lot of good in ways that skeptics are woefully unable to.
I think that in Zen, we try to find the Middle Way through all of this. The Zen attitude towards its own scriptures and ceremonies has always been thoroughly skeptical. To cite just one example, even though the Lotus Sutra says Buddha could fly and that his lectures were attended by all sorts of weird beings from alternate universes, nobody in the Zen lineage ever insists that you need to actually believe any of that stuff. And even though we hold elaborate religious style services with plenty of chanting, bowing and incense offerings to statues, there is never any pressure to believe that some kind of magic happens when we do that stuff.
I’m basically a skeptic. But I’m not a hardline skeptic. I see the value of a certain degree of faith. It’s rational to have faith sometimes. Not faith in the supernatural, but faith that what we know is not all there is to know.
Groups like the Mormons and others like them offer what they offer for a price, and that price is that you must believe. In a brilliant article for the LA Weekly called Why I’m Not an Atheist, Henry Rollins speculated on the origins of religion and said some of the same stuff I often say (Henry, do you read me?). He said, “Since there aren’t enough resources for everyone to have a personal cop monitoring their every action, there must be a mega-cop so huge that his omnipresence is invisible and unquestionably powerful. This is what I figure religion is. Try to be good. Being human, you will make mistakes, but all is not lost. You can ask to be forgiven; by meditating on your mistake, you will see that it would be unwise to repeat the behavior. Throw in the idea of punishment and reward and it’s a workable system.”
Yet that system is breaking down under the weight of skepticism and the wider understanding of how the universe really works. It’s harder and harder for people to believe in their old Gods. Some try to take up arms against science but it’s a fight that’s doomed to fail.
What we need is a religion without beliefs. Fortunately we already have one and it’s been around for a long time.
UPCOMING EVENTS
April 3, 2015 Pomona, CA Open Door 2 Yoga
April 24-26, 2015 Mt. Baldy, CA 3-DAY ZEN & YOGA RETREAT
May 16-17, 2015 Nashville, TN 2-DAY RETREAT AT NASHVILLE ZEN CENTER
July 8-12, 2015 Vancouver, BC Canada 5-DAY RETREAT at HOLLYHOCK RETREAT CENTER
August 14-16, 2015 Munich, Germany 3 DAY ZEN RETREAT
August 19, 2015 Munich, Germany LECTURE
August 24-29, 2015 Felsentor, Switzerland 5-DAY RETREAT AT STIFTUNG FELSENTOR
August 30-September 4, 2015 Holzkirchen, Germany 5-DAY RETREAT AT BENEDIKTUSHOF MONASTERY
September 10-13, 2015 Finland 4-DAY RETREAT
ONGOING EVENTS
Every Monday at 8pm I lead zazen at Silverlake Yoga Studio 2 located at 2810 Glendale Boulevard, Los Angeles, CA 90039. All are welcome!
Every Saturday at 9:30 am I lead zazen at the Veteran’s Memorial Complex located at 4117 Overland Blvd., Culver City, CA 90230. All are welcome!
Registration is now open for our 3-day Zen & Yoga Retreat at Mt. Baldy Zen Center April 24-26, 2015. CLICK HERE for more info!
Plenty more info is available on the Dogen Sangha Los Angeles website, dsla.info
* * *
It is rational to donate to the continuation of this blog since you are reading it. You can donate as little as one dollar! It all helps.
In a similar vein:
http://infinitewavesofbeauty.blogspot.com/2014/04/the-secular-apocalypse-what-it-destroys.html
Bokononism is the answer!
Yes, but can he hold the hoe handle with an empty hand. I doubt it. None of the sceptics can.
Sam Harris never woke up and he missed the boat.
This is how I approach the more “religious” aspects of Zen. I like the chanting and ceremonies, and I actually like wearing robes (unlike a certain Zen monk), but I don’t take the written scriptures as “gospel.” I think it is more appropriate to view the scriptures as expedient means, or simply as encouragement to practice.
I’m currently reading the new “Zen Teachings of Homeless Kodo.” (Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/The-Zen-Teaching-Homeless-Kodo/dp/1614290482) In the book, both Sawaki and Uchiyama use the Japanese word for “religion” (shukyo) to mean something like “awakening to reality.” If we take that view, then Zen practice can indeed be a “religion.” Why not?
Zen can’t be a religion because religion is soooooooooooo yesterday and sooooooo unoriginal.
Funny! Good one!
A rather inane comparison, given that Dawkins and his friends aren’t in that habit of taking in addicts, getting them clean, etc. Do you believe that atheists are incapable of charitable acts?
No wonder there are so many scandals in Zen, no one believes in anything.
“No wonder there are so many scandals in Zen, no one believes in anything.”
Not true, I believe that the empty hand grasps the hoe handle.
And “I” believe this from Tao Bums:
‘”The ox crosses the wooden bridge”
The wooden bridge is the mind that dwells in essence. The Unborn Buddha mind once it has seen itself. The ox is a happening that is entering and exiting the Buddha mind. This line is a marker for the stage of enlightenment or illumination. ‘
It’s a wondrous thing, Zafu, when the Unborn Buddha Mind sees itself. It’s seeing Itself through you.
I was kidding. Religious people of all kinds (including Zen) believe whatever they are lead to believe. Example: A famous quote from Harada Daiun Sogaku:
We got your point the first time. You always seem to beat your quotes to death.
I’m lazy.
The mistake that skeptics fall into is to think that religion (any religion) is about belief. Instead, religion is a discipline, a way to live your life.
Zafu:
I was kidding. Religious people of all kinds (including Zen) believe whatever they are lead to believe. Example: A famous quote from Harada Daiun Sogaku:
[If ordered to] march: tramp, tramp, or shoot: bang, bang. This is the manifestation of the highest Wisdom [of Enlightenment]. The unity of Zen and war of which I speak extends to the farthest reaches of the holy war [now under way].”
Don’t forget this too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-ffYA2KHFY
Not a Zen monk, I think, and if that makes a significant difference.
That would be a mistake, if indeed anyone makes that mistake. Religion is about meaning. A meaningful way to live your life.
Skepticism is not a position – it’s an approach to claims.
Dad… TP…. Reminder.
What separates Zen from other religions and philosophies is the physical practice of zazen meditation. While I find the philosophies and koans appealing on a personal level, what continues to bring me back to zen is the meditation itself. When the stress builds up or when anxiety strikes, I can usually rely on a good hour of practice to bring my mind back in tune.
Sure, zen could be called a religion without beliefs. But it is certainly not a religion without anything! (no zen pun intended there). We come to zen to experience zen, not to win brownie points with the man upstairs. Or to meddle with any concept for that matter, because zen (to me) is a way to escape from concepts, not meddle around in them.
Many people I have met who are into zen dont see zen as a practice, but as a religion. And I find this upsetting. I fear the day when the majority of new Zazen practitioners only take up the meditative stance because they believe it is symbolic for something. When that happens, the religion is lost.
“I started to wonder; Would Arthur Kane have been better off if, instead of the lying Mormons, he’d run into the truth-telling, falsehood-debunking followers of Richard Dawkins instead?”
“What we need is a religion without beliefs. Fortunately we already have one and it’s been around for a long time.”
So, would he have been better off if he had run into a truth-telling zenni? What sort of comfort might he have derived? Actually, there is not way to tell. It’s all prediction and speculation isn’t it? Perhaps it was the lies that gave him comfort or just that someone, even for their own purposes, probably non-altruistic purposes, was taking care of him? Would he have gotten that from Zen?
What exactly would Zen have offered him that would have been anything like what he received from the Mormons? What aspect of religion is found in Zen what would have been anything like the aspect of religion found in Mormonism that would have done for him what that false belief did?
Can you be more specific?
The comfort of no-self and meeting physical death head on.
Then, I would say, no religion required, whatever “religion” means in the context of what Brad is saying. Is Zen religion? Is it not religion? Is it the religion of no beliefs? Depends on what constitutes religion.
Brad has talked about “religion” and the “new atheists” or “skeptics”, not called “hardline skeptics” in relation to what he seems to see as their uncalled for war on religion. He has talked about the Zen being a religion and perhaps not being a religion. So, what does that mean?
Zen doesn’t have a God, but Brad seems to believe in one, sort of in a way, but not? Religions seems to mean ritual, which he embraces but which he has also said is not religious, as in the funeral he did.
So, I’m wondering. If there is comfort in Zen, why would anyone go to Mormonism? If Zen is “true” in a way that Mormonism isn’t, then why would Mormonism be a good thing? Is this the “practical benefits” argument for religious belief and practice, regardless of “truth”?
It would seem that if skepticism would likely not have helped the person he mentions, how would Zen with it’s skepticism?
Can you have no-self and meet death head on without religion and without Zen?
Can you?
Very Zen of you, answering a question with a question.
Yes, you can.
I hate to introduce reason into a Zen discussion, but in order to reasonably or intellegently say that zen is not a religion you first have to know what a religion is.
As if you have any credibility in the matter. But go ahead and tell: What is a religion?
A religion is an organized collection of beliefs, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to an order of existence. Many religions have narratives, symbols, and sacred histories that aim to explain the meaning of life and/or to explain the origin of life or the Universe. From their beliefs about the cosmos and human nature, people may derive morality, ethics, a preferred lifestyle, etc. They derive meaning, in a nutshell.
Is Zen meaningless? Feel free to lie.
Zafu,
I think I understand most of what you wrote describing religion. But I am stumbling with the phrase “relate humanity to an order of existence”. I can’t get it to compute.
Care to rephrase it?
As an aside, I became interested in zen because it seemed to lack many attributes which I associate with religion. In an nutshell, I am reminded over and over in ways both covert and overt that I have to figure things out for myself.
This is quite different from the religion of my parents, which asked to believe things were true based on faith.
Cheers.
Hahaha
This is the truth of it, Zen practice can help to reduce anxiety but that it. Buddhist practice doesn’t lead to the cessation of suffering. That’s a lie.
1) Stress/anxiety/loneliness/fear/shame etc. ≈ suffering.
2) Zazen [a Buddhist Practice] => reduced Stress/anxiety/loneliness/fear/shame etc.
3) Therefore [from 1) and 2) by modus ponendo ponens], Buddhist Practice leads to a reduction of suffering.
4) Suffering has ceased exactly to the extent that it was reduced. [Due to the well-known definitions of ‘cease’ and ‘reduce’]
5) Therefore, [from 3) and 4)] Buddhist Practice DOES lead to the cessation of suffering. Q.E.D.
… thinking ain’t your strong suit, is it Zafu?
No it isn’t. I’m an idiot.
So in the four nobel lies (religious folk consider them truths), it says that suffering is ceased exactly to the extent that it is reduced? Kinda like saying that you’re pregnant exactly to the extent that you’re pregnant. Surly the four nobel lies are not that stupid?
SNAFU :”No it isn’t. I’m an idiot.”
Hahaha
“Kind of like saying that you’re pregnant exactly to the extent that you’re pregnant”
Not really. Suffering is a variable quantity. Pregnancy is more of a yes/no.
Unless you think getting bit by a gnat is just as suffery as getting bit by a shark?
* idiotic typo (Shirly)
Depends on how you do it. Sitting can be just another form of craving peace. One has to actually engage the Four Noble Truths through feeling dukkha and tanha without running away from those feelings or trying to “calm” them through some dissociative method. Which sitting can be. Facing the truth of what we are doing without turning away is the method.
The Platonic Noble Lie was the gold standard of political and religious behaviour up to pretty recently. In Europe, the Church was totally cool with the pious bullshit of hagiography, if it increased the faith of the faithful. Then Luther, Calvin, etc. banned new noble lies in favour of making the old noble lies of the Bible the gold standard of Truth. Then empirical science kicked in, saying that its theories were The Truth, because they were based purely on experience (but of course there’s a big gap between observing a fact, and the noble lie of an overarching theory of nature). Then quantum physics confused things a bit. Then came postmodernism and poststructuralism and deconstructionism: where everything we can say is just another story, and there’s no ‘true’ explanation of anything, nothing known for sure, just discourse without intrinsic value, floating in the primordial soup of cultural relativism.
And then Western intellectuals fetishized Zen for a while, thinking maybe it offered a way out of the paralysing mental quagmire of unordered discourse and ignoble lies. But sadly Zen’s main point is that reality is ineffable, we can never ever tell the truth. We can but try to approximate it, and always miss the mark.
Well, anyhow, the Mormons came to my friend Andy’s brother Craig’s door one day a few years ago. Andy’s brother Craig lived alone, never answered the door to nobody, and spent his life drinking cheap cider. The only person he ever saw was his neighbour, who went round once a fortnight to deliver cider and some food. It was like that for years. But this one day, he answered the door. The Mormons came in, and told him he didn’t need to drink any more, then they left. From that day to this, Craig hasn’t touched a drop of alcohol. He never answered the door to the Mormons again either (which seems a bit ungrateful to me).
We usually act based on our beliefs, which more or less resemble ‘the truth’. What the Mormons told Craig was a ‘lie’, objectively speaking: he was a physically dependent alcoholic, so really he DID have to keep drinking. But the Mormons told him their belief with so much conviction and matter-of-factness, that he believed them, and the new belief was powerful enough that it made the original statement by the Mormons true in fact. So, go figure.
SNAFU, why are you wasting your time here being critical of Zen, Brad, Zen practice, etc? If it’s of no use to you, why bother?
Do you have some type of deep seated personality flaw that compels you to act out in this way?
Wouldn’t you like to get it fixed?
Zafu is a most bodacious bodhisattva. He refuses to accept any reduction in suffering until the cosmos is utterly bereft of it.
Bereft aye. Fancy pants.
Really good stories, in this episode of “The Brad Warner Adventure”.
As I’ve said here before, Godel’s incompleteness theorem was the be-all and end-all of philosophy to me, because it pointed so clearly to the inability of logic to encompass everything that is known to be true.
The work of the intuitionist school in mathematics in rejecting one of the axioms of logic that had been around for two milennia, because of the paradoxes it allowed, is to me the acceptance of Godel’s theorem and the beginning of the examination of what can be arrived at through logic- since we know we can never encompass everything, we can start with a basis that doesn’t permit Cantor’s paradox, and see the structure that is implicit in that basis.
“This is the truth of it, Zen practice can help to reduce anxiety but that it. Buddhist practice doesn’t lead to the cessation of suffering. That’s a lie.”
To the extent that “deliverance from thought without grasping” finds me, to that extent I feel relieved of suffering. That the way is the observation of the happiness inherent in states of trance, the kind of trance that everybody experiences regularly in every day, would be my personal take; the hang-up is simple ignorance of the senses, and while we can talk about ignorance in favor of what all day long, I find “making self-surrender the object of thought” more conducive to happiness.
Non-medical detox from alcohol nearly killed a friend of mine; it’s not generally recommended, as far as I know.
The guy from the ‘Dolls, he got lucky, but I agree that a lot of folks practice their faith to great benefit, both for themselves and others, even when that faith appears entirely mythological to me. Christians I’ve met who have most impressed me are those who believe that a person is helpless to do right, and can only give their life over to Jesus in this regard.
At least that’s a clear statement of the experience of action as not belonging to self. The necessity to extend a mind of friendliness, of compassion, of sympathetic joy, of equanimity, call it a mind of love in the four quarters throughout the world in ten directions enters into action in Zen; my contention would be that as with the intuitionistic approach to mathematics, it’s not necessary to complete the infinity for action to take place.
The concept of God is like the concept of the completed infinity in mathematics, and acceptance of the concept of God results in certain paradoxes, just as the concept of the completed infinity results in certain paradoxes in mathematics.
“As I’ve said here before, Godel’s incompleteness theorem was the be-all and end-all of philosophy to me, because it pointed so clearly to the inability of logic to encompass everything that is known to be true. ”
Godel was just restating what Pyrrho discovered more than 2,000 years ago.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Münchhausen_trilemma
“Non-medical detox from alcohol nearly killed a friend of mine; it’s not generally recommended, as far as I know.”
Indeed, no. Got to chime in on this… and this is what make’s SH’s friend’s brother’s story so troubling. Alcohol is one of the few controlled substances where the withdrawal can kill you. It happens all the time, which is why alcoholics are generally required to go to detox before they can enter a treatment program. Under different circumstances, such a ready acceptance of these missionaries advice could just as easily land one in the morgue.
As far as Arthur Kane is concerned… I’m a big fan of that movie, and as I recall Arthur speaks very little of either the historical or mythological aspects of Mormonism in the footage we see there (and I agree the Book of Mormon represents a mythology and, from what I can tell, a pretty lame one at that.) He certainly came off as very Christian to me, but the only thing that marked him as especially Mormon was an appreciation of Brigham Young’s wardrobe proclivities. Of course it’s possible that sort of thing landed on the cutting room floor – I don’t know enough about Arthur to weigh in on that – but it’s also possible the reason he stuck with the Mormons is simply because that was the church he stumbled onto and the community that absorbed and looked out for him. Basically where his friends (and groupies, ha) were. Which is the same reason why a lot of people stick with the churches they are raised in even when they disagree with some of their doctrines.
TBH the missionaries might have been Jehovah’s Witnesses rather than Mormons… it was a while ago… and I’m out of touch with the people concerned.
But yeah. .. cold turkey detox… It could have turned out worse
What are the exact mechanisms in molecular terms how detoxing off alcohol can kill you?
I don’t know, though I’m sure you can find out from any medical textbook. Or you know, the internet. As I understand, it involves an actual brain seizure. Of course there are lots of alcoholics, even people who’ve been drinking every day for years, who are not that far down the road, but once you do pass that point it’s one of the most dangerous kinds of withdrawals a person can grapple with (even narcotics withdrawal, though obviously no walk in the park, is far less likely to be fatal). Though I can’t explain the exact biochemistry of the thing, I do speak from experience – not first hand, but I’ve known more than my share of serious alcoholics. Which maybe explains why I couldn’t help but get all preachy and PSA about it.
So you figured out the four nobel lies for yourself, aye?
You don’t believe the four nobel lies are true out of faith or belief, you know they are true because you have ceased to suffer?
I would like to believe you, but religious folk are forced to lie.
zafu,
I’d try to respond to your comments but they have nothing to do with anything I’ve said. You ignore my question about your definition of religion. Next you ignore my comments and spin off into rhetorical support for your own position.
That’s not a conversation, it’s preaching. Have fun Reverend Zafu.
Cheers.
You don’t respond because there is no response. I’ve called your bullshit.
In his blog post Brad Warner says that the religious truths in Mormonism are lies. But does he say that the religious truths in his own religion are lies? He won’t say that the four noble truths are lies, because he BELIEVES they are true. He cannot know they are true because he still suffers like any other sentient being. He has faith, as he mentions.
Basically all he’s doing is pooh poohing other religions and praising his own. This has the effect of making his religion more meaningful to himself and to those who believe him. Religious authorities have been doing this since the whole rigmarole began.
So you’re saying that the four noble lies are indeed lies? Even if you are, that is still only your belief. You cannot know that they are false. You also cannot know that they are true, because you suffer.
Are you the same Zafu my Dad farts on every morning?
Hi Zafu!
I was raised with Chan (child abuse haha!), but I am strongly non-religious. So I do sort of identify with a bit of your perspective as I perceive it through your troll rollin’ on here, but I also don’t get your need to push your beliefs on others in the way you are here. It’s almost like you’re an extreme version of me here and it’s teaching me to be less of a cunt. Ha! Anyway, what is your thoughts on my about to be major coffee infused rant below?
Buddhism, Zafu, is not a lie. It is the only and absolute truth. Period. It is truth, the four noble truths are actually testable, like any science. Period. When I experience my real self, when am that which is realized, this here now, forever, all the buddhas and teachers are here with me as a great koan, a great joke, echoing that yes, right here is my face before I was born. As Fred might say, the Universe sees itself.
Welcome home. . .
or wait. . . never mind. . . that’s not right. .
Christ said he’d return in 2000 years. I remember myself, my face before I was born. It’s 2015, oh crazy! Christ returned. Welcome home. . .
or wait . . . never mind. . .
Jesus was the blah blah whatever. . .
Or wait. . .
There is only God. . .
or wait never mind. . .
God isn’t real, it’s all a lie. Only this moment is real, and if I look elsewhere, it’s all illusion and false meaning.
or wait. . .
The universe is just sitting on the back of a turtle. . .
or wait. . .
Each moment is the divine dance of creation and destruction. . .
or it’s all karma
or it’s not. . .
the Mormons were right. I was raised Mormon, and as I experience God I finally see the secret my Mormon family was transmitting. . .
Or wait, I was raised with Islam, and it means means submission. I surrender myself and what is left? Allah.
What I am getting at here is that you are right about your rant about seeking meaning. It’s all applicable when it is. This is also the secret to koans (in the non-soto way apparently), it’s all applicable when it is. When I say is, I mean IS.
When you try to destroy or battle other’s beliefs, as in your ranty little “four noble lies” comment, you are actually trying to take what has meaning to you, what is applicable to your experience, to your digested meaning of the world, and then shitting it on other’s like a douche.
Life itself only exists within picking and choosing, hot and cold, relative to all concepts. So yeah, it’s all false meaning. So you are all wrong and right, because that which is realized as enlightenment has room for everything.
There is room for everything. How could only Zafu be right? How could only Sid the Buddha’s punk ass be right? No way, fuck the Buddha!
So extremists have minds that can’t be changed, but insists they are right. Zafu, you are an extremist. I actually like it! Keep up the fun work, but don’t think you’re being smart, because you are actually just being an attached asshat.
Should post a warning for lil Fred Jr. That’s some pretty foul language there Juslui.
You are agreeing that religion is about meaning, and that’s the only essential thing it has to offer?
Oh, so the Zennies here do have religious beliefs. I already knew that.
Haha this is fun, Zafu, although I should be working.
I bet this depends on how you view life, dude. I think that beliefs make life happen. The assumption of the next moment as a human is like the big bang, moment to moment. So for me, it’s all belief. This to me is what karma is as well. Action. The will to be here as a human. I guess this is also what people are referring to when they speak about attachment. I think, therefore I am a ranty prick enslaved by gravity!
Also, you’re a good sport man. I can be a prick to you and to take it in proper internet stride like a proper pimp. Cheers!
There’s some classic old zen stuffies on here that won’t take name calling to kindly. Rattle away, little butterfly, just rattle away 😉
Zafu wrote:
“Should post a warning for lil Fred Jr. That’s some pretty foul language there Juslui.”
I’m a foul mother fucker, zafu. People can suck it if they don’t like it. Life is foul, thank fuck.
Brutally uneducated comment
Holding on that Sun Dance comment, eh?
I don’t know, I think I was rather grammatical in that comment for once, and as far as the meaning, I’d say I’m spot on.
Life is totally foul. Under the skin is nasty and we carry it around for 80+ years if we are lucky! Life is suffering. The ants tear apart the writhing moth, letting the watcher know that, to use a rather Old Testament Job type of answer, that God is fucking insane. RWAR!
I like this about life. It’s totally rainbows and broken bones. Nasty as it is sweet. Thank fuck for this dream, it’s a mad one 😉
hmm actually I’m reaching. . . yeah, maybe rather uneducated comment. I think I will cyber bow out on this one with you being correct. (fucker)
I’m not correct at all, fuckwit, just messin with ya 😉
Stick that hoe handle where the sun don’t shine, and go Fuxi yourself.
Holy shit I need that as a T-shirt along with “Zen, Bitch, get some”.
Not bad, Fred, not bad. Here’s a present:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDTfi1G_Mh0
That’s a famous Zen quote, Snafu.
I am laughing!
“What I am getting at here is that you are right about your rant about seeking meaning. It’s all applicable when it is.”
I would agree with justlui, the four truths apply when suffering exists, otherwise they are a paddle with no boat, somewhere up the creek. That to me is the first truth.
Here, I think, is a good run-down of the conditioned genesis of suffering that Gautama described as the second “truth”, and the cessation of which is the third “truth”:
Through ignorance are conditioned volitional actions or kamma-formations.
Through volitional actions is conditioned consciousness.
Through consciousness are conditioned mental and physical phenomena.
Through mental and physical phenomena are conditioned the six faculties(i.e., five physical sense-organs and mind).
Through the six faculties is conditioned (sensorial and mental) contact.
Through (sensorial and mental)contact is conditioned sensation.
Through sensation is conditioned desire, ‘thirst”.
Through desire (‘thirst’) is conditioned clinging.
Through clinging is conditioned the process of becoming.
Through the process of becoming is conditioned birth.
Through birth are conditioned decay, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair.
(from here)
Conditioned consciousness I would say is the “station of consciousness” Gautama once referred to, which IMO is consciousness stuck in one location instead of surfing with the “foaming breakers of the sky on level ground”.
The ignorance in the list of cause and effect is usually taken to be ignorance of the four truths themselves, and while that works on some level, for me an ignorance of experience at the moment is implied, and I find affirmation of my view in Gautama’s sermons:
“(Anyone)…knowing and seeing eye as it really is, knowing and seeing material shapes… visual consciousness… impact on the eye as it really is, and knowing, seeing as it really is the experience, whether pleasant, painful, or neither painful nor pleasant, that arises conditioned by impact on the eye, is not attached to the eye nor to material shapes nor to visual consciousness nor to impact on the eye; and that experience, whether pleasant, painful, or neither painful nor pleasant, that arises conditioned by impact on the eye–neither to that is (such a one) attached (repeated for ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind).
Whatever is the view of what really is, that for (such a one) is right view; whatever is aspiration for what really is, that for (such a one) is right aspiration; whatever is endeavour for what really is, that is for (such a one) right endeavour; whatever is mindfulness of what really is, that is for (such a one) right mindfulness; whatever is concentration on what really is, that is for (such a one) right concentration. And (such a one’s) past acts of body, acts of speech, and mode of livelihood have been well purified.”
(Majjhima-Nikaya, Pali Text Society volume 3 pg 337-338)
That last paragraph addresses the fourth truth, the eight-fold path to the cessation of suffering, and says if you’re surfin’ it’s all a wave.
Now the key to the whole mess is the cessation of the volitional activities; Gautama says they cease gradually, with the activities of speech ceasing in the first meditative state, the volitional activities of in-breathing and out-breathing ceasing in the fourth meditative state, and the volitional activities of perception and sensation ceasing as the state of neither-perception-and-sensation-nor-not-perception-and-sensation ceases; that follows the thought, “all that is constructed and thought-out (including the experience of the state of the state of neither-perception-and-sensation-nor-not-perception-and-sensation) is impermanent”.
Zen says the cessation of the activities can be instantaneous, right here (when your board goes nose-first into sand, for most people):
“It Doesn’t Come From Outside
The essential thing in studying the Way is to make the roots deep and the stem strong. Be aware of where you really are twenty-four hours a day. You must be most attentive. When nothing at all gets on your mind, it all merges harmoniously, without boundaries–the whole thing is empty and still, and there is no more doubt or hesitation in anything you do. This is called the fundamental matter appearing ready-made.”
(“Zen Letters: Teachings of Yuanwu”, trans. Cleary & Cleary, pg 53)
Nice! So, do you suffer, Mr. Foote?
forgot to mention that Gautama does often say, “decay, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair– in short, the five groups”. Most of us would think that “decay, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair” is something different from grasping after self in the five groups. Not so Gautama.
” somewhere up the creek. That to me is the first truth.”
That sounds like a good start.
‘Most of us would think that “decay, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair” is something different from grasping after self in the five groups’
We would, would we?
“all that is constructed and thought-out (including the experience of the state of the state of neither-perception-and-sensation-nor-not-perception-and-sensation) is impermanent”
The locus of the focus generating the hocus-pocus and clinging to a will to meaning is up the creek without a paddle
“We would, would we?”
Sorry, that should be wu wei
“Sorry, that should be wu wei”
Hahaha, nice one Fred.
And nice one Mark, for A nice root, branch and stem overview of GotamaDhamma. Everybody’s gone surfin’, surfin’ mu – wu wei!
Henry Rollins is an ass
Surf’s up, down, sideways; here’s yours truly, surfing for 3-year-olds & company at Murphy’s, Sonoma (while the headliners replaced a string):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmWNZptY9ds&index=1
Yup, Rollins really is an ass. I was about to go off on one of my rants about him, but he’s such an insipid motr ass, that I’d just bore myself.
Early Black Flag stuff was good though
Baaa baaa baaa
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33hajppi4yg
Zafu vs. World
Shepard: “There are no beliefs in Zen”
Sheep: “baaa baaa no beliefs!”
Zafu: “uh, what about the cessation of suffering thing?”
Sheep: “baaa baaa no beliefs!”
Zafu: “so, y’all don’t suffer?”
Sheep: “baaa baaa no beliefs!”
Zafu: “apropos of nothing, has the Shepard ever tried to mount you?”
Sheep: “BAAA!! BAAA!! BAAA!!”
Zafoo the Shepherd:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B94lP-fZyLk
Sheep: “baaa baaa no beliefs!”
OMG
Zafu. MuvvaF**ka, you’re rousin the sheeple
Baaa baaa baa
Here’s Mark playing lead guitar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CmFjh6M56o
Sexy sheep song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfdEQGkbxmE
And now we leave the image of human sheep and return to the empty hand grasps the hoe handle.
Oh Dad, you’re always grasping the next thing 🙁
The bump, lot o’ PC today. Leaning on the right, a bit.
Reading “The Scarlett Cliff Letters” the other day, there’s a reference to a simple log bridge. I think it was in “Chao Chou Lets Asses Cross, Lets Horses Cross”; yup.
I wonder, could a matchbox hold my clothes?
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_geIWpTfyw8k/TQRITREFsPI/AAAAAAAAA1M/37oaO9kXcvk/s1600/Issho%2BFujita-4547.JPG
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFC-7GGY9j4
“I wonder, could a matchbox hold my clothes?”
The bridge is flowing, the water is still
That Fred, always looking ahead! But where’s the meaning in that?
“…we all must look forward to tomorrow and looking forward to tomorrow is just going from eyes closed to eyes open. Eyes open is looking toward tomorrow and when the eyes are open there’s a new wife and a new husband. They have to go on another honeymoon.”
(Joshu Sasaki, from here)
Sasaki lets asses honeymoon, lets horses honeymoon; I must have rocks in my head.
Spit ’em out! Aye, there’s a lad!
“…we all must look forward to tomorrow and looking forward to tomorrow is just going from eyes closed to eyes open. Eyes open is looking toward tomorrow and when the eyes are open there’s a new wife and a new husband. They have to go on another honeymoon.”
And a new inji to molest.
Brad has written about atheism and it’s strange tendency to proselytize. This article gives an interesting analysis of atheism present and past.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/03/what-scares-the-new-atheists
Cheers.
b-a-a-a-a, no beliefs!
dukkha is my teacher, dukkha teaches me everything I need to know, everything I need to do. This is zen.
Thinking non-thinking does not concern itself with belief, meaning, theism, a-theism, religion…………..
… reality.
… Zafu
The symbolic world where you live isn’t reality. It’s what you project onto reality, a proxy for reality.
The symbolic world where I lives and reality are not two
Not real, ba-a-a-a.
Not one, ba-a-a-a.
Not two, ba-a-a-a.
Not not meaningful, haha!
Pardon the double negative.
“The symbolic world where I lives and reality are not two”
They are for Zafu
Zafu, darling, nobody here is claiming there is no meaning, or that there are no beliefs. You’re shagging a straw sheep.
This self is an illusion. Any belief this self has is an illusion. There is nothing to hang onto, and the only reality is an empty hand holding the hoe handle.
Hey Dad, not sure if you’re coming from a “buddhist” perspective here. If so, you may want to brush up on what the records have Mr. G saying about existence or non-existence of a “self”. (Hint – it seems like he’s saying that neither perspective is useful.)
When you get to the empty hand, and the bridge is moving, come and talk about it.
Doesn’t it feel like holding the perspective that the ‘self’ is illusion subtly reinforces the ‘self’ who holds that perspective?
Conceptions of bridges and empty hands may appear from time to time, sure!
haha, you’ve won!
Zafu shagging the straw sheep in duality.
Sadly, I’m not getting much shagging in duality or non-duality.
My mistake, I assumed he was talking about Zen Buddhism. Maybe he was talking about Scientology, and is converting to Hardcore Scientology.
And I’m not claiming to claim that anybody is claiming that there are no claims to claiming there is no meaning, in Zen. I’ve merely pointed out that religion is about meaning.
Speaking of straw sheep.
The Anticipated Stranger,
the bruise will stop by later.
For now, the pain pauses in its round,
notes the time of day, the patient’s temperature,
leaves a memo for the surrogate: What the hell
did you think you were doing? I mean . . .
Oh well, less said the better, they all say.
I’ll post this at the desk.
God will find the pattern and break it.
(Ashbery)
Roses are red, violets are blue, religions are about meaning, and zen is too.
Thanks, Andy.
Apropo of nothing:
“With this method of circulating the ch’i, it overflows into the sinews, reaches the bone marrow, fills the diaphragm, and manifests in the skin and hair.”
(“Thirteen Chapters”, Chen Man-Ch’ing trans. Douglas Wile, page 17)
Apropo of something:
http://whiskeyreviewer.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/sheep_dip_scotch.jpg